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Brexit

Westminstenders: Following the EU lead

969 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/05/2020 17:50

Coronavirus poses a particularly Irish shaped question. How the UK responds to Irish plans for ending lockdown and whether Arlene continues to back an all Ireland plan will be fascinating to watch and see justified regardless of which way we go.

The UK for all its new found independence is looking very closely to the success / failure of EU strategies before making our own plan public. Mainly because we've yet to write one.

Johnson hasn't led much. He's delegated. Yet he gets all the praise for doing the sum total of fuck all and never being the bad guy. There always another fall guy to blame.

Economically we are stuffed and promises of a very quick bounce back don't look likely based on public confidence and willingness to return to places like pubs restaurants and shops.

Our ability to adapt to new conditions at short notice has been tested and businesses can not afford to do this again soon.

This is the background to which we go into talks. Both sides need an extension to serve their best interests. Johnson is determined to cut our nose of to spite our face for the sake of his legacy and to keep those paying the back handers and dodging tax happy.

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MockersxxxxxxxSocialDistancing · 08/05/2020 08:48

A plug for the much-admired Covid tracking site written by a 17 year old:

ncov2019.live/data/europe

AuldAlliance · 08/05/2020 08:51

What do you speak, TheElements?
Smile

Peregrina · 08/05/2020 08:57

I was trying to think of some comparison language wise. You might say you taught English, without specifying whether it was British English, or American English. You wouldn't say you taught Indian - you might say you spoke an Indian language though - Gujurati, Punjabi etc. I don't know whether people in the South of India would though. It's fascinating.

RedToothBrush · 08/05/2020 08:57

But at the same time, the clapping for the NHS barely happened last night

Same here. Still had the bloody fireworks though.

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BurneyFanny · 08/05/2020 09:07

Arabic would be a decent comparison.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/05/2020 09:24

Very informative, Elements, Medical Brew

I love learning from Westministenders about sometimes esoteric subjects
Such a wealth of knowledge here

BigChocFrenzy · 08/05/2020 09:29

I've been getting angrier and more exasperated the last few days, reading the details of Operation Cygnus

The government knew from this that the UK wasn't even prepared or equipped for a bad flu epidemic,
let alone what we have now

Yet they did nothing
Criminal negligence that has cost so many lives - and increased the economic damage

Did the senior public servants, the CMO & Chief Scientific Advisor, not keep warning of this
Or did they decide to keep their heads down and avoid speaking truth to power ?

Did they do their duty and keep warning, but the govt was too obsessed with Brexit to listen about anything else ?

RedToothBrush · 08/05/2020 09:32

Did they do their duty and keep warning, but the govt was too obsessed with Brexit to listen about anything else ?

It happened on May's watch... But Johnson hasn't done anything either. And Cameron should have had a plan in action for the expiry date of PPE anyway.

So Brexit?

Yes and no. Austerity and too busy with internal bullshit? More likely.

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PawFives · 08/05/2020 09:38

That’s a good point @Peregrina about how difficult it would have been to have a different viewpoint in Nazi Germany. Thankfully it’s not quite at that stage here yet, but there are parallels especially with the volatile political situation and post WW1 Germany.

It feels to me that the current VE Day anniversary and associated patriotic celebrations has almost a manic, desperate edge. I wonder if people are really as into it as is being hyped up by e.g. BBC?

Mistigri · 08/05/2020 09:39

"The UK as a whole has about 60 cases / 100,000 pop per week atm

So the entire UK would fail Merkel's test to stay open"

You'd need good regional data for this. The UK's regions are too large and critically have no devolved govt structures.

Uk epidemic is also very widespread unlike the more concentrated epidemics elsewhere in Europe.

HesterThrale · 08/05/2020 09:42

I agree Bigchoc. You learn all sorts on here!

I also am fascinated by languages.
Random Bank Holiday facts: It’s amazing that there are over 7,000 languages in the world, but one dies every fortnight. Presumably because the last speaker dies.

www.ethnologue.com/

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/api.nationalgeographic.com/distribution/public/amp/news/2018/04/saving-dying-disappearing-languages-wikitongues-culture

MockersxxxxxxxSocialDistancing · 08/05/2020 09:46

Apols if anyone has made this point already, but the point about Chinese is that it has a pictographic script, meaning that speakers of Mandarin and Cantonese cannot understand each other's speech but write using the same characters. Think of House/Maison/Casa/Dom and a picture of a house, etc.

Peregrina · 08/05/2020 09:49

Did the senior public servants, the CMO & Chief Scientific Advisor, not keep warning of this.

Yes, but we've had enough of experts, remember? Those that have dared to speak out have had their marching orders. Sadly, it's only one or two who were brave enough to speak out, so they can be picked off easily - it needs a critical mass to tell Johnson where to get off.

Peregrina · 08/05/2020 09:52

Think of House/Maison/Casa/Dom and a picture of a house, etc.

That reminds me of the time we went to Portugal on a cruise. We got lost, so we stopped someone and drew a picture of a boat on the water, and got back OK.

TheElementsOfMedical · 08/05/2020 09:54

What do you speak, TheElements? @AuldAlliance

Well... Grin

My family are from Penang (one of the original Crown Colonies) and of Nyonya descent. Like most Nyonya families, there has been plenty of introduction of "fresh" blood of more recent Chinese migrants.

So on my dad's side, I learned Teochew (Chaozhou) dialect whilst on my mum's side, I learned Hakka dialect. Because we are from Penang which is in the north of the Malay Peninsula, we also speak Penang Hokkien dialect. Plus, since this was Malaya after all, everybody also spoke Malay. All this was passed down, informally, as it had been for generations as a collection of pidgins. In fact, our preferred language amongst family members and other Penang Nyonyas is English albeit a distinctly Malaysian version.

My family were also formally educated in English which was the language of the colonial administration and a lingua franca for all the ethnic groups in the federation, which persisted even after independence. Also after independence, Malay was declared the official primary language and subsequently everybody was also educated in Malay.

My parents moved us to the capital Kuala Lumpur for work when I was tiny. KL is in the "middle" of the Peninsula, where the main Chinese dialect is Cantonese. So I had to learn that. Although Mandarin classes were offered in school, they were rather patchy in quality and my parents weren't that bothered so didn't push us to learn. And then I moved further south to Singapore in my teens to study, where the main social dialect has been Mandarin since the (?) early 80s (?) so I had to learn then. BTW, the elderly Singaporeans would often still speak Southern Hokkien dialect too.

All this has changed a lot since the rise and rise of China as a superpower, and SE Asian ethnic Chinese people just a few years younger than me tend to have embraced Mandarin education, eschewing their ancestral dialects except for chatting to their aged relatives.

So: I speak several fossilised Chinese dialects, to varying degrees of fluency and pidgin-ness, but am hardly able to read the written characters. Whereas thanks to formal education (and actual proper daily use) I'm first-language fluent in English and Malay.

Upshot: Many ethnic Chinese people take the trouble to clearly distinguish between which dialects they mean, because it really matters. We don't really ask each other "Do you speak Chinese?" but rather "Do you speak X dialect?" - I wouldn't say the dialects are completely unintelligible as you can generally see the relationships between the words (and the grammatical structure is basically the same), but you'd have to both work really hard, speaking slooooowly and listening carefully, to get the meaning across.

Further tidbit: Although Taiwan and the PRC both officially use Mandarin, there are some variations and they use different versions of Chinese script. Taiwan still uses traditional characters whilst the PRC use simplified characters.

Clavinova · 08/05/2020 09:55

It's very unusual to see a course called simply 'Chinese'. Rosetta Stone specifies that they teach 'Mandarin Chinese'.

Did anyone actually click on the link for that statement?
www.rosettastone.com/learn-chinese/

Rosetta Stone (as per Cambridge University Press) have used the blanket term 'Chinese' throughout - interspersed with 'Mandarin' and
'Mandarin Chinese'. Good enough for them...

HesterThrale · 08/05/2020 09:59

That’s interesting Mockers. Is that like Arabic? I think the script is the same, but it’s spoken across North Africa and the Middle East in different dialects. I met some people once from different Arabic-speaking countries who couldn’t really understand each other’s Arabic dialects.

It’s fascinating how languages develop.

MockersxxxxxxxSocialDistancing · 08/05/2020 10:02

Don't think so Hester.

I think Arabic script is phonetic, but every character is a vowel.

TheABC · 08/05/2020 10:03

@TheElementsOfMedical, I try to make the effort to learn at least a few phrases of the language before visiting a place, if only to show some appreciation of the culture. What would you suggest a bewildered foreigner learn? Grin

MockersxxxxxxxSocialDistancing · 08/05/2020 10:06

A plug for Channel 4 News last night and their report on the PPE Scandal.

We all saw the masks and gloves with the out of date markings overwritten with new stickers. This was the stockpile established by the Labour Govt after the 2009 Bird Flu that was supposed to be progressively replenished but which was run down under Osborne's demand for cuts cuts cuts.

The odd thing is that since C4 started asking questions about this, they have been excluded from the govt. briefings since Sunday.

www.channel4.com/news/revealed-ppe-stockpile-was-out-of-date-when-coronavirus-hit-uk

prettybird · 08/05/2020 10:06

Before I changed course from Russian to Economics (joint with French) for my degree, the one bit of the Russian course I really enjoyed was "History of Language" and how the language had evolved. It was the only bit I regretted having to give up (and the really awkward thing was that the Dean of Faculty I had to ask for dispensation to repeat the year which because of my "extra" year in France was made more complicated was also the specialist/my tutor in that subject and knew I'd enjoyed it Blush)

Peregrina · 08/05/2020 10:06

Is rosetta stone correct though? It says that Mandarin is the official language of Singapore, but the above post, from someone who has first hand knowledge of the area, rather contradicts that.

TheElementsOfMedical · 08/05/2020 10:07

What would you suggest a bewildered foreigner learn?

Grin

Malay!

It's the national language, much easier (no tones), understood by all ethnic groups on the Peninsula, and is written in Roman characters.

After decades of being together, DH has only managed a few phrases in my various dialects (mostly exclamations, swearwords and food) Grin but has acquired a fair grasp of social informal Malay.

JeSuisPoulet · 08/05/2020 10:08

BCF You're having the wave I had before I started posting on here again. I think I posted about it with a link from TrueRepublica or something similar. Hancock was the one who hushed it all up. At uni we were well aware we had pandemic as a high threat and the effort to coordinate a response was struggling. I got a lot of eye rolls talking about it alongside Brexit (irony seeing as it will indeed coincide!). I think David King was arguing for more PPE and being told it was too expensive/hard to store but I can't find where I remember that from.

I did see in the Guardian the other day this which sums up our poor response quite well here www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/05/coronavirus-nhs-marketisation-pandemic?CMP=fb_cif&fbclid=IwAR3_M_7Gz0Yf_NFDb0DmlhQNPmBGVzucObcA6OsRz8NvuEVYuYQPbiE6FqE and it all started with the breaking down of PCTs for CCG.

TheElementsOfMedical · 08/05/2020 10:09

It says that Mandarin is the official language of Singapore, but the above post, from someone who has first hand knowledge of the area, rather contradicts that.

It is indeed correct. Singapore has four official languages reflecting its history and ethnic make-up: English, Malay, Tamil (historically most ethnic Indians who migrated to Singapore and Malaya were Tamil-speakers) and Mandarin Chinese.

Unofficially, obviously, people can chat in whatever gets them understood.

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