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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Mask is Slipping

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 17/02/2020 05:30

This week has seen the department of the Chancellor who launched a 50p piece, the serious contemplation of a tin pot bridge, the rebirth of eugenics as a subject for cabinet, the announcement of the end of the BBC as we know it, the cabinet chanting after the PM in a way Orwell would be proud of, suppression of a report into trade deals which dares to mention the effect of distance and geography, worrying signs of an ever growing rift with Europe over negotiations for a deal, an appointment which starts to make our membership of the ECHR look very dodgy and there have been rather a lot of floods which so far seemed to have escaped the attention of those in London busy in their own swamp.

It's becoming apparent very quickly just how Trump like our new government are and how they want the UK to emulate the very worst aspects of America.

We are falling fast and its not looking like it will be pretty.

All we need is a major global issue to test our national resilience and the incompetence will truly be laid bare for us all to see... But not necessarily speak of. Such us the way it works.

Brexit Britain is not a nice looking prospect.

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Peregrina · 21/02/2020 14:38

All you can say is that the practical effects of these policies are not going to play well with a lot of voters - including the ones who happily voted Leave.

There was a letter in the Guardian the other day from someone lamenting that he voted for Johnson and got Cummings, and at least people who voted for Corbyn got Corbyn.

BigChocFrenzy · 21/02/2020 14:42

"This just makes me more and more annoyed that all the Opposition parties let Johnson have his election."

peregrina The Opposition didn't have a majority to delay a GE any longer:
the later bunch of 21 ex-Tories were still Tories, but just opposed to No Deal
As soon as they were satisfied that was ruled out, they refused to vote for further delays

Also, blocking a GE was one of several things that cost Labour votes - further delay would likely have cost even more

BigChocFrenzy · 21/02/2020 14:43

When Corbyn / Labour voted for a GE, they were just trying to put a brave face on the fact that they no longer had the votes to stop it

DGRossetti · 21/02/2020 14:58

There was a letter in the Guardian the other day from someone lamenting that he voted for Johnson and got Cummings, and at least people who voted for Corbyn got Corbyn.

Boo fucking hoo. Well in 5 years, you know what to do.

DGRossetti · 21/02/2020 14:59

Even the IEA - that hotbed of tobacco harm and climate change deniers - said in 2017 that the smoking ban has saved the government a net £20 billion.

That's the same "savings" that removing streetlamps gained the local council. Because no one balanced it up with the cost of increased road accidents and crime.

Mistigri · 21/02/2020 15:13

They specifically looked at the loss of revenue but also the savings right down to the saving on street cleaning from removing cigarette butts.

I'm not saying the IEA is right here (god forbid) but if even a pro-tobacco industry think tank says banning fags saves taxpayers money, then you've got to at least provide some evidence if you want to claim otherwise!

DGRossetti · 21/02/2020 15:25

I'm not saying the IEA is right here (god forbid) but if even a pro-tobacco industry think tank says banning fags saves taxpayers money, then you've got to at least provide some evidence if you want to claim otherwise!

I have the evidence of my wallet. Taxes going up, and what's provided disappearing. Every "frozen" benefit is a disguised tax rise. Every under-inflation award is a tax rise. That mysterious VAT rate hike from a few years back that slid by unremarked ...

Anyway, all of this distracts since I assume neither of us is suggesting that reducing - if not eliminating - smoking is a bad thing ?

Mind you, I wonder if that'll be another thing - like food standards - that's going to be a nice memory of the 2010s ? Smoking ban ? How nanny state is that. It'll have to go, you know.

Songsofexperience · 21/02/2020 16:47

Is the beeb still trying to suck up to its enemies? Turning into Fox news before they have to anyway?

www.independent.co.uk/news/media/tv-radio/bbc-question-time-racist-video-immigration-ash-sarkar-twitter-a9349316.html

DGRossetti · 21/02/2020 16:55

Is the beeb still trying to suck up to its enemies? Turning into Fox news before they have to anyway?.

I wonder how well a YouTube "Gogglebox for QT" reaction video would do ?

TheABC · 21/02/2020 16:57

Here's a morbid thought for you. I have been following the cornovirus news and it's starting to spread in clusters outside of China - at some point it's going to appear on a wider basis in the UK.

Given that up to 20% of the population who do get it will require intensive treatment, what do you think that will do to the NHS? Or social care? It's going to be interesting to see how the Government manage that one...

DGRossetti · 21/02/2020 17:16

Here's a morbid thought for you. I have been following the cornovirus news and it's starting to spread in clusters outside of China - at some point it's going to appear on a wider basis in the UK.

I don't think it's that much a worry - the worry about the worry seems far more of a worry. We're not looking at Black Death levels of mortality. No one is going to need to sew themselves into their own funeral shroud just yet. Well, unless they want to, that is.

Given that up to 20% of the population who do get it will require intensive treatment, what do you think that will do to the NHS? Or social care? It's going to be interesting to see how the Government manage that one...

If that one-fifth really do get it, then that's one fifth of everybody. So one-fifth of doctors, policemen, nurses, bus drivers, airline pilots, shelf stackers, postmen, bakers etc etc. One-fifth is enough to catapult us into one of those historical reality shows that look quite fun on TV, but I suspect less so made real.

I'd say no-deal Brexit was a much more real and possible threat than this particular virus. Unless there are as yet undiagnosed long term effects from it - like a drastic reduction in fertility or fecundity ...

Peregrina · 21/02/2020 17:47

DGR - have you forgotten? We have already done Brexit/Black Death. It was about three years ago.

DGRossetti · 21/02/2020 17:51

DGR - have you forgotten? We have already done Brexit/Black Death. It was about three years ago

Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow ...

I struggle to remember what I had for breakfast some days Grin

RedToothBrush · 21/02/2020 17:51

Given that up to 20% of the population who do get it will require intensive treatment, what do you think that will do to the NHS? Or social care? It's going to be interesting to see how the Government manage that one...

From the (dubious) information we have so far, the largest study so far of over 44,000 cases had the death rate of over 80s at 14%. In males over 60, it was put at 6%.

Now there has to be a very large pinch of salt here but that would have a big impact on hospitals and social care. Most of the severe cases would follow a similar pattern.

But deaths wouldn't just be from an epidemic. Itd would be people dying from other things not able to get adequate care.

This politically would be something of a disaster for the Conservative Party... Could be have positive effects for housing crisis, pensions and health care long term though (if you want to be really grim about it). So Johnson is going to have to pull his finger out with a solution if it does get bad...

DGR re fertility: COVID-19 acts on the ACE-2 receptors, and these are expressed in the testes in men. One effect of the disease is testicular lesions. So there are concerns about the effect of the disease on male fertility. At the moment the most serious cases are in older people with children seemingly not too affected. But we don't know the long term effects and researchers are concerned about this area.

I think I'm more concerned about how this plays out globally at this stage. The situation in Iran looks bad. With a case that has already spread from Iran to Lebanon being reported today.

Imagine what happens if it spreads across the border to Syria. The effect on those in refugee camps with no formal governance or hospital care could be devastating especially if many are already in poor health. Fear of 'the plague' here could provoke new waves of migration to Europe where there is healthcare. Lots of refugees are getting stuck in Bosnia and Serbia causing rising tensions there. And then there places in Greece already struggling with massive numbers. Large numbers of people moving whether tgey are infected or not is going to be a big political issue. These people being 'off radar' are also likely to spread it.

I also dread to think of the effects in the US. The number of homeless in cities like San Fran is scary. Deaths here aren't going to be just the virus. And don't think of the medical bills...

The economic effects of china's shut down is starting to ripple through too. I've seen reports that apple's revenue could be down by 40 to 50% in Q2. And there the travel industry which could suffer enormously. We don't know yet what we could get shortages of from imports. I do think that there will be issues in this area because they are already in the pipeline because of China. There have been riots in Ukraine over the location of a quarantine centre.

The death rate or the hospitalisation rate aren't going to be the only issues. Fear itself is something we probably will have to contend with as people are going yo get very scared as the news stories start to get bigger and closer to home. Plus there will be economic fall out of what's already happened. For example imports of pork in China have completely collapsed.

Yes I am concerned. But not a lot you can do to mitigate any of it. And what happens in the UK isn't the only thing you should have your eyes on.

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DGRossetti · 21/02/2020 17:55

I am waaaaaaaaaaaay more worried about the batshittery that crops up - seemingly worse than the last time - when these diseases rear their heads. The panic is far worse than the actual disease.

The biggest threat is that China - for whatever reason - finds itself unable to return to pre-COVID economic activities before companies like JLR, or JCB go out of business.

RedToothBrush · 21/02/2020 18:08

Joe Owen @JL_Owen
This from @Steven_Swinford in @thetimes gives us indication of govt thinking:

- knows low skill approach announced yday unsustainable in medium term

- yesterday’s policy had to be Theresa May’s 2018 plan w/ tweaks, because not enough time to make changes

Also important recognition that govt is going to have to have a responsive system - changing to reflect demands/shortages.

Like it or not, free movement was a safety valve in migration policy. Now it’s gone, much more pressure to get it right.

Westminstenders: The Mask is Slipping
OP posts:
Peregrina · 21/02/2020 18:13

This politically would be something of a disaster for the Conservative Party...

As far as the current Tory Party is concerned - bring it on!

I don't vote Tory and never have done, but at one time they used to have perfectly decent people among their ranks - now they all seem to be liars and cheats, or just plain thick.

ListeningQuietly · 21/02/2020 18:13

I do not think that COVID19 will cause many deaths in the UK
It does not seem to be particularly virulent

its impact on the world economy on the other hand ......
The Foxconn factory is still not back at full production and may take another month to get there
it employs over 300,000 people ......

DGRossetti · 21/02/2020 18:16

The problem with things like "short term visas" is it's just going to push the remuneration required higher. Meaning you'll have local British workers seeing the higher wages going to "short term immigrants". Which is not only not sustainable socially, but which runs counter to the idea of driving wages down, which is at the heart of this.

And that's before you wonder - as many have - why on earth anyone wouldwant to come to such a reception in the UK ?

I noticed a really dumb - but brilliantly illuminating question on another forum earlier. It went something like:

These English language skills immigrants are going to have to have from now on. Will they apply to their spouses and families ?

Obviously a new immigration system is not going to allow spouses in as a de facto right. If at all. I would imagine spouses would only be allowed if they satisfy the visa requirements in their own right.

As for wider families. Forget it.

HateIsNotGood · 21/02/2020 18:18

Social Care meaning - looking after our Elderly Population -requires a serious overhaul. The wages and T&Cs of Care Workers needed to be above the NMW and the area of mileage and travelling between Clients needs serious addressing too.

Seriously addressing - to say that we don't want people caring for our vulnerable elderly paid too much because it might attract the wrong people is more hilarious a concept than I can think of right now.

Up the rate to at least £15 ph + Employment Benefits + Mileage + Flexible Working and many qualiified and very suitable, caring unqualified people willl be available right here.

ListeningQuietly · 21/02/2020 18:20

Re people still coming to the UK despite its xenophobia .....

EU migrants were able to shrug their shoulders and go home when they wanted.
After paying £1000 for a visa they will not risk breaking its terms

Non EU migrants often did not realise how deep seated the racism was till they got here

and I do believe it has become much, much worse in the last 6 years - thanks to that nice Theresa May and the hostile environment

DGRossetti · 21/02/2020 18:22

EU migrants were able to shrug their shoulders and go home when they wanted. After paying £1000 for a visa they will not risk breaking its terms

You'd have to be fairly confident you'd make that £1,000 back too.

ListeningQuietly · 21/02/2020 19:03

INTERESTING
I'd assumed that the Red Wall turning Blue would stop the Tories pushing through the boundary review
BUT
According to this page
www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html
They would have got an even bigger majority (104)

so basically unless Labour lurch MASSIVELY to the middle
we live in a one party state Sad

TheElementsOdeToJoy · 21/02/2020 19:08

I think there will of course still be people wanting to come here: (1) those from places where it’s much worse in conditions and/or pay so almost anything or any risk seems worth it; (2) those confident of earning so richly that the visa cost will swiftly be recouped.

ListeningQuietly · 21/02/2020 20:19

Elements
But your group 1 will have great difficulty getting a job offer that meets the limits
and group 2 will be bossing Brits around so making everything worse