Is the EU falling apart...?

[Frownette]

My mother seems to be convinced it is. She hasn't given a compelling reason.

And someone at the Halifax told her that it was!

anybody got a quote from Hannan or Patterson in 2020
you know
NOW
not history ???
FFS
water under the bridge is just diluted piss

where do we go from here?

Eu ded not falling apart. More popular than ever in Eu member states. The Uk on the other hand, well it’s days are numbered.

I obviously needed to spell it out more simply: who, on this thread, was talking about Owen Paterson?

As for Hannan, although I didn't name him, in my original post I quite clearly posted "quite happy to state after the Referendum result had been declared 'No one is talking about leaving the Single Market'."

This after all, was a perfectly reasonable thing for a Tory MEP to say, because it was repeating a manifesto commitment.

It seems from this that the Leavers are not averse to doing their own mash ups when it suits, and trying to say that Brexiters didn't say what was said. What a pity the Internet was invented and we can now capture things easily.

I think the Brexiters genuinely thought that we held all the cards, because they had so little interest in the EU that they hadn't bothered to find out how it worked. Not so much as having their bluff called, but getting a rude awakening. Hence trying to rewrite the script to "we never said it would be easy", when that was exactly what was said.

No, the whole point of using the quotes before,and after the referendum was to show that there were lots of ways of leaving, and they were debated. This was to show that the whole point of the poster complaining about article 50 was incorrect.

What had happened since the leave vote is many campaigners have realised that this is their one chance to force through their own agenda (which ironically was never on the ballot) and shout down anyone who critiques this as being anti democratic.

So really, he was saying that we wouldn't be leaving the single market but the EU.

What he actually said is written in his letter to Jeremy Corbyn:

"In an interview with Dermot Murnaghan for Sky News in October 2015, I said: 'Only a madman would actually leave the market. It's not the EU, which is a political organisation, delivering the prosperity and buying our goods. It's the market. It's the members of the market and we will carry on trading with the market. Are we really suggesting that the fifth largest economy in the world is not going to come to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU? Are we going to be like Sudan and North Korea? I mean, it's ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a cliff into a dark space. We will carry on trading'."

A 'satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU' is not the same as the single market. Led By Donkeys, People's Vote Campaign and others inserted the word 'single' to fit their narrative. I doubt that Jeremy Corbyn actually checked.

I obviously needed to spell it out more simply: who, on this thread, was talking about Owen Paterson? Ah -

"As for Hannan, although I didn't name him, in my original post I quite clearly posted "quite happy to state after the Referendum result had been declared 'No one is talking about leaving the Single Market'."

He didn't say 'Single Market' in that interview either.

I was quoting Hannan on Newsnight, the evening after the Referendum result was declared. However what he had already said to Corbyn does illustrate his ideas well. He talks about it being unlikely to not come to a satisfactory arrangement with the EU, but more than 4 years on from his saying this, No Deal is still a possibility.

And as I may as well repeat, commitment to the Single Market was the Tory party policy in the 2015 Manifesto, so he didn't need to spell it out, and nor do Leavers need to pretend that it was only Led by Donkeys or Peoples Vote who inserted the word Single.

he said "common market" which was the forerunner of the single, and ceased to exist once the single market did. It means the same thing.

Owen Patterson was your own raising yet why would he say "leaving the market" if he was talking about the trading relationship not changing. If he had said we will still trade on different terms, that would have been the honest thing. If you leave the EU, you do leave the single market.

I'm sorry but I cannot give one iota of a shit about the pontificating of politicos four years ago

WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?

lets take that whole point apart

"Its not the EU, which is a political organisation, delivering the prosperity and buying our goods, its the market. "

Well actually the EU single market is delivering that prosperity, because it creates the trading conditions.

"its the members of the market. And we will carry on trading with that market." Again suggesting not leaving.

WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?

I hear we are setting up some nice Freeports.

You don't have to give a shit, but where we came from dictates where we will be going and how people will receive it when we get thete.

Johnson was also an enthusiast.

I am interested in what they pontificated 4 years ago, because they need to be held to it. "EU citizens in Britain would have their rights protected, as would Britons living in the EU, he said."

but where we came from dictates where we will be going and how people will receive it when we get thete.
so, where are we going?

this thread is wall to wall derailing trying to discuss old comments and manifesto points
all of which became landfill in mid December

look forwards not back

June 26 2016 Clav...

Like I said what has happened is a certain part of the leave vote is forcing through an agenda never on the ballot, and not discussed much prior to the vote.

We need to look at what was said and compare it what they are saying now. Its called democracy.

@ListeningQuietly

Remain supporters will never answer your question as they think Brexit should be cancelled even though it is now passed both in EU and UK law. All they are doing is making fools of themselves as Mistigri has said on two different threads.

Jasjas thinks imprisonment of 17.4 million leave voters sounds good and people should be screened before they vote to determine if they are sufficiently knowledgeable.

Malylis thinks that leave based on lies, but it was okay for Honda to lie about reasons why Swindon plant was closed.

The prediction of 500,000 to 800,000 and a recession was correct, but didn’t happen because of events after the referendum. How that demonstrates that none of the 16.1 million who voted remain took any notice of such figures is not yet explained.

Peregrina keeps on about ceramics.

Alondra is of the view that UK held the EU back.

Etc, etc.........

mystery
You won,
get over it
tell us what the plan is

Not all landfill though LQ - because some pledges were made and they need to be held to them. OK the £350 million a week for the NHS was never a real figure, but the spirit of spending more on the NHS most definitely led the Leave vote for many. This has now been backed up with Johnson stating that there will be 50,000 more nurses and 40 new hospitals. We need to see these, or at least in the case of nurses, which will take some training up, we need to see cast iron plans for training them up.

Hahaha mystery you really do try hard don't you.

Brexit was based on lies, as has been proven. The Honda thing I don't understand? I said they had used a press release to stop bad PR about their closing Swindon, and it worked because people bought it. Never said this was fine.

Your arguments are circular and poorly made.

Lets talk about the futute?

Leave with a basic deal in December is my prediction.

Peregrina
Oh I agree that the Tory December 2019 needs to be enacted - they had a clear majority
but everything before that - from all parties - is landfill
as are all the comments and hot air around the 2016 vote
its history
we need to move on

Peregrina keeps on about ceramics.

I make no apology for this:
a) because the Industry leaders want to protect where they do a majority of trade now, and need some guarantees about it, and not gushings about how they might do trade deals elsewhere in future and

b) I once lived near the Potteries, so I knew people who lost their jobs when firms previously moved their production abroad and then had difficulty finding work, so I know what the human cost is like.

We need to look at what was said and compare it what they are saying now. Its called democracy

Incorrect.

Democracy is preserved when;

Majority vote is implemented by government
Losers consent
Freedom of choice when voting

Applying your logic to Honda what is the conclusion? Are they a democratic organisation or liars?

Leave with a basic deal in December is my prediction

No deal is mine.

Mystery

Did you really ask sixteen million people what they believe?

Or are you just spouting nonsense?