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Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

OP posts:
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BigChocFrenzy · 23/12/2019 17:03

The analysis of the Exit poll by Ashcroft and YouGov showed Labour's BIG problem was that they only won iirc 49% of the Remain vote

They not only lost a substantial chunk of their own Remain vote (over 70% of Labour 2015 GE voters were Remain) to LDems, Greens, Nationalists
They also could only persuade a tiny % of Remainers from other parties to even vote tactically for them

it looks a combination of Corbyn the bogeyman repelling centrists & moderate leftists
as well as Remainers not trusting a longterm ideological Lexiter who had to be dragged away kicking & screaming from this.

In addition to losing so much of the Remainer vote, Blair's failure to repair Thatcher's deindustrialisation of traditional Labour areas such as the North caused many to vote against a Labour party they felt betrayed them

Electing a younger Corbyn with boobs won't win back any of those groups of voters

thecatfromjapan · 23/12/2019 17:16

And don't forget the woeful election campaign, which left Northern marginals (especially those with non-Corbynist MPs) entirely undefended.

DGRossetti · 23/12/2019 17:18

Is it as simple as the Labour voters that deserted in the EU elections remained deserted in the GE ?

If so, the culpability at the top is undeniable. It's not as if Labour weren't warned ...

(FWIW I'm a reverse of that. I didn't vote Labour in the EU elections, but did for the GE ...)

thecatfromjapan · 23/12/2019 17:27

No.

In the cities, a lot came back.

But even in the cities, some didn't & stayed with the LDs.

placemats · 23/12/2019 17:34

A very late PMK.

Have been reading but not been able to post, because once I start.

Very interesting links and if I don't get the chance again can I wish you all

Season's Greetings. xx

DGRossetti · 23/12/2019 17:46

Ah, we're cityistas ... filled with a dread of all things rural.

thecatfromjapan · 23/12/2019 18:05

Just reporting back with first-hand experience, DGR.

I have to look at the statistics for other places.

My family in the Midlands haven't had much to report. Other than dismay. 🤷‍♀️

thecatfromjapan · 23/12/2019 18:07

I'm going to follow placemats in wishing Season's Greetings and best wishes to all.

Stinkyeddie · 23/12/2019 18:35

Merry Christmas to you all
🎄

dontcallmelen · 23/12/2019 18:38

PMK as ever thanks to everyone & wishing you all a peaceful & happy Christmas🎄I have stepped away from the news/papers for a while as think it’s better for my MH at the moment.

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism
RedToothBrush · 23/12/2019 18:59

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-victory-was-a-verdict-on-culture-wars-ccbv0xj7l?shareToken=319886c7d404ca94a39a2bdbddcac053
Tory victory was a verdict on culture wars

As well as Brexit, this election was about a silent majority pushing back against the shouty warriors of wokeness

OP posts:
CrissmussMockers · 23/12/2019 19:39

....The Drama Queen's Christmas Message

BigChocFrenzy · 23/12/2019 19:39

Whatever govt we have had, a major problem for over a century has been weakening productivity compared to our main competitors
e.g. German productivity is about 20% higher

The last decade has been even worse than usual - and has been Tory, btw ...

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/23/uk-statistic-decade-productivity-government

Our productivity in the past 10 years has been truly terrible.

In the period before the financial crisis it was growing at around 2% each year, but in the last decade that has slumped to an average growth of 0.3% a year.
....
It’s the most important boring statistic that you have never heard of, which is why the Royal Statistical Society has today decided to name it
the UK Statistic of the Decade.

Productivity is broadly the measure of how efficiently an economy creates goods and services.

It is the key to every country’s long-term prosperity,
and high productivity growth means a bigger economic pie, allowing for higher wage growth and more money for public services.

There’s a good argument that many of the tensions and issues we have faced in the UK in the past decade would have been eased with the prosperity that comes from more productivity growth.

CrissmussMockers · 23/12/2019 20:20

As the world's first industrial nation, we have always had the problem that our kit is always older than everybody else's. Add in our national propensity to seek quick profit rather than more jam tomorrow, and you see why in the 1950s we were building steam locomotives which, it was planned, would see British Rail through well into the 80s.

The French, with their long lunches and grandes vaccences in August, work an average 30 hour week and get more done in that time than we do in nearly 40.

Our broadband speeds are pathetic, mainly because we are still using copper wires mounted on wooden telegraph poles. We still have water tanks in our roofs (with dead pigeons in) because Victorian supplies were unreliable. We're not allowed to have light switches in the bathroom because our switches are so badly designed.

We are Upper Volta with Trident missiles.

chatongris · 23/12/2019 20:33

As well as Brexit, this election was about a silent majority pushing back against the shouty warriors of wokeness

I think that the war on "wokeness" is by and large being waged by people who don't like Muslims very much, who are anti-EU, and who are broadly speaking very socially conservative.

When I first joined Mumsnet, there were "Cologne" threads all over the political boards - basically, using "feminism" as a thin veil for racism and anti-migrant propaganda.

Those same people are now posting in praise of Douglas Murray on the feminist board.

DustyDiamond · 23/12/2019 20:55

The Douglas Murray thread is really good 🤷🏻‍♀️

XingMing · 23/12/2019 20:58

As a swing voter in a traditionally Tory seat, I weighed my choices carefully. I really liked Labour's candidate, especially as he very carefully dodged mentioning his party leader in all his election literature. Labour was trounced at the polls because our largely self-employed one man band electorate went ... No, I don't believe a word of what you are promising is remotely possible. Only people in the public sector and local government who attend meetings voted Labour.

chomalungma · 23/12/2019 21:11

From that Times article

" The truth (which many in the woke tribe will find deeply troubling) is that the endless repetition of his old remarks on Muslim women or gay men probably made him go up in the estimation of many voters, who are tired of the offence-taking minority that controls the conversation in our country."

There's probably truth in that. I find that depressing and worrying.

XingMing · 23/12/2019 21:19

Why would you find that so worrying? I'm really interested to know.

chomalungma · 23/12/2019 21:22

Why would you find that so worrying? I'm really interested to know

You can't see the issue when comments like that get normalised and ridicule and abuse of others get normalised and people who object to such things get told to be quiet?

It doesn't take much for people to become 'other'.

Some people in the UK haven't moved on much from the attitudes of the 60s and 70s.

pointythings · 23/12/2019 21:24

XingMing I find it worrying that people approve of someone who says vile things about other people. We're supposed to be better than that.

XingMing · 23/12/2019 21:25

It's not that I have any investment in Muslim women ( I adore beautiful abayas, and have spent some (quite a bit of) time in Muslim countries) or gay men (I also support the freedom for gay men to enter and declare committed relationships). But neither makes me economically irrational.

yolofish · 23/12/2019 21:26

I agree with chomalungma. The fact that someone who ran for PM, then became PM, then won a GE, can use the type of language he did is all about creating chaos. Then he won out of the chaos and is now (seemingly) attempting to call for unity, healing the divisions etc. Those divisions will not be healed if "people" think it is ok to talk about picanninies, bumboys, letterbox women etc.

chomalungma · 23/12/2019 21:27

I heard on Radio 4 that Number 10 was asking the FA to get a grip with racism in football, I might have sworn at that point.

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