Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
CrunchyCarrot · 23/12/2019 06:57

I can’t be the only person who’s rejoined in a bid to get a decent leader.

You're not, AlsoHuman, I've done the exact same thing.

People are inherently good

Disagree. I'd say most people are a very mixed bag of good, bad and indifferent, liable to be swayed one way or the other by more dominant people. I've known some really unpleasant people during my lifetime, it's hard for me to accept they are 'inherently good'.

There had better not be parties.

I expect there will be, along with fireworks.

TheElementsSong · 23/12/2019 07:54

Brexit police out in force since They Won, which is odd since They Won.

"Obedience is not enough. Unless he is suffering, how can you be sure that he is obeying your will and not his own?"

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 23/12/2019 08:04

Thanks red

BlaueLagune · 23/12/2019 09:17

Oh well at least the fact that it's January means street parties won't be a thing.

And if the weather is shocking the fireworks will be a damp squib.

CrissmussMockers · 23/12/2019 09:52

I think the Momentumite Plan is to stop any of the new members from voting for the new boss same as the old boss: "Don't Do As I Do, Do As I Say."

The idea that people are born innocent and inherently good and are made bad by experience is pure Rousseau Leftyism, as opposed to the Tory Hobbesean idea that people are sods and need laws and cops with big sticks to keep them in check.

tobee · 23/12/2019 09:59

Incidentally, where are we on the declaring of Labour leadership runners and riders?

thecatfromjapan · 23/12/2019 10:09

tobee Betting odds have Keir Starmer and Rebecca Long-Bailey out in front.

R L-B is the Corbyn continuity candidate.

And that's pretty much it, really.

If there is a contest format that allows a head to head, a non-Corbynite might have a chance. If not, I think the Momentum bloc vote will ensure R L-B wins.

DGRossetti · 23/12/2019 10:24

Despite voting Labour, I have zero interest in getting involved in their internecine obsessions.

There is a serious school of thought that says if you oppose the Tories, you'd have more effect joining the Tory party than Labour at the moment, in terms of power per member.

tobee · 23/12/2019 10:51

Thanks cat. That answer makes me feel blah! I haven't watched the news, heard the news or read my news apps or newspapers since the 12th. Considering I was addicted to the news til recently constantly had 24 hour news coverage on that's a big lifestyle change!

BlaueLagune · 23/12/2019 11:21

There is a serious school of thought that says if you oppose the Tories, you'd have more effect joining the Tory party than Labour at the moment, in terms of power per member

Yes. I'm probably about 30 years (20, anyway) younger than their average age as well.

Alsohuman · 23/12/2019 11:55

There is a serious school of thought that says if you oppose the Tories, you'd have more effect joining the Tory party than Labour at the moment, in terms of power per member

My stomach’s not strong enough for that.

ListeningQuietly · 23/12/2019 12:09

Just to remind people that history is still to be written

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism
CrissmussMockers · 23/12/2019 12:23

I'm rather Doris Day about the whole thing: Que Sera Sera.

If the Left are sufficiently thick to believe that RLB can win, let them try, and then repeat the process if necesssary n times until enough of them get fed up with losing.

I'm also watching the Greens for signs of coherence and pragmatism because they may yet emerge as the real alternative to the perceived self-interest of the well-off.

DGRossetti · 23/12/2019 13:20

How to make even more money from the less well off ... interesting timing.

www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/18118444.notemachine-atms-oxford-start-charging/

'PUNITIVE' withdrawal charges have been brought in at a well-used cash machine on an Oxford estate.

The only ATM in Barton, next to the shops in Underhill Circus, is now charging 99 pence for use.

Residents will have to travel to Headington to find their nearest free machine, and there are concerns that cash-only businesses in the area will suffer.

Peregrina · 23/12/2019 13:26

How to make even more money from the less well off ... interesting timing.

One of the poorest estates in Oxford, if not the poorest.
People do not realise the extremes there are in Oxford, with million pound houses not far from poor estates.

DGRossetti · 23/12/2019 13:40

Oh, Arlene ? Grin
Oh, Arlene ! Grin

Tanith · 23/12/2019 14:00

I see Andrew Bridgen is keen for Nigel Farage to get that knighthood that was absolutely-not-promised-for-standing-down-his-candidates-in-the-election-of-course-not-just-a-co-incidence Hmm

DGRossetti · 23/12/2019 14:13

I see Andrew Bridgen is keen for Nigel Farage to get that knighthood that was absolutely-not-promised-for-standing-down-his-candidates-in-the-election-of-course-not-just-a-co-incidence

From what seats I saw, the BXP had fuck all impact on the result of the election.

FatFredsFriedEgg · 23/12/2019 14:27

From what seats I saw, the BXP had fuck all impact on the result of the election.

I noticed Barnsley East: Lab 14,329, BXP 11,112, Con 10,337.

That's more what I hoped expected would happen across Yorkshire.

DGRossetti · 23/12/2019 14:46

I noticed Barnsley East: Lab 14,329, BXP 11,112, Con 10,337.

All the BXP results I saw were in the low 2-3,000s ... but even if you tokk all those votes and added them to the Labour votes, Tory would still have won.

I really CBA to trawl through all 300 or so seats. But in the absence of a proven contradiction, I'm standing my comment that overall, the BXP did not affect the outcome, which was a Tory majority.

What did affect the outcome was people not voting Labour.

Alsohuman · 23/12/2019 14:52

Hartlepool gave 53% of votes to the Tories and BXP combined. It’s still got a Labour MP though.

FatFredsFriedEgg · 23/12/2019 15:36

I was just drawing your attention to a seat that I'd noticed, prompted by the From what seats I saw.

It goes without saying that it had fuck all impact on the overall result of the election. If BXP hadn't stood at all the Cons would still have had their big majority.

FatFredsFriedEgg · 23/12/2019 15:38

Yes, Hartlepool as well - virtually the same numbers as Barnsley East.

howabout · 23/12/2019 15:45

34 Labour seats where Brexit Party vote is larger than the margin of victory over the Conservatives apparently.

The risk for Labour is that they don't sort themselves out and Farage follows through with his threat to conjure up an alternative. Equal risk for the Tories if they don't follow through with both Brexit and economic re-balancing.

brexitcentral.com/the-brexit-party-actually-saved-the-labour-party-from-annihilation-last-week-in-places-like-sunderland/

The Sun have a list of 20 seats where this applies (not sure whether Sun, Mail or Express link is worse)

www.thesun.co.uk/news/10576141/boris-johnson-couldve-won-by-even-bigger-majority-after-nigel-farages-brexit-party-blocked-20-seats/

bellinisurge · 23/12/2019 16:30

My constituency isn't mentioned there but simple maths shows you that without the Brexit Party hiving off votes, Labour wouldn't have won. This is a safe Labour seat. Very very safe. Or rather, it was.

Swipe left for the next trending thread