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Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

OP posts:
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MarshaBradyo · 22/12/2019 20:33

I do feel a bit that whilst we scrutinise Labour and their loss Johnson and C are doing whatever they like without much scrutiny at all.

I say this as someone who was annoyed at Labour for their lack of understanding which way to go.

Lucygoeswalkies · 22/12/2019 20:44

I’m probably alone in this, but I can’t help but think that ringing Big Ben to mark our exit from the EU, might have unintended consequences. I can see it being a trigger for for some pretty nasty behaviour.

CrissmussMockers · 22/12/2019 20:55

Luckily it is going to be cold and dark and with any luck chucking it down.

But get your French or German car out of sight in the garage, just to be on the safe side.

Peregrina · 22/12/2019 20:56

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

DGRossetti · 22/12/2019 20:56

I’m probably alone in this, but I can’t help but think that ringing Big Ben to mark our exit from the EU, might have unintended consequences. I can see it being a trigger for for some pretty nasty behaviour.

Is it St. Bartholomews day ?

PawFives · 22/12/2019 21:27

Bit of a belated PMK (although doing better than last thread!) As always, some really interesting points made - couple of things really struck a chord. Can see the increased social conservatism in my Brexit voting relatives definitely. I don’t know who Labour are going to choose for the leadership but God, I hope they get it right. There’s a lot at stake, and agree that the more the narrative is Labour tearing itself apart the less scrutiny there is of what the government are doing.

HesterThrale · 22/12/2019 21:43

A taste of what it’s like to live in a country where peaceful protest is not automatically permitted. Climate activist in Moscow jailed for 6 days for ‘unsanctioned’ picket.

www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/12/20/russian-climate-activist-jailed-greta-thunberg-led-protest-a68708

ListeningQuietly · 22/12/2019 21:56

The important point is that politics is a nasty little bubble that sucks us in
and stops us doing the good stuff we should concentrate on

People are inherently good
systems are inherently positive
we need to stop giving oxygen to the shits
and look after the interests of our as yet unborn grandchildren

tobee · 22/12/2019 22:03

The Labour Party won't pick a good leader though. Not for a long time. It may be dead by then.

But something might come in it's place, but don't hold out much prospect for making any progress.

Alsohuman · 22/12/2019 22:30

Oh come on, tobee, they might get it right. I can’t be the only person who’s rejoined in a bid to get a decent leader.

Lucygoeswalkies · 22/12/2019 22:33

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ for quoting a deleted post.

Lucygoeswalkies · 22/12/2019 22:36

No idea why Peregrina’s post was deleted.

Peregrina · 22/12/2019 22:41

Most People are inherently good
Many systems are inherently positive

we need to stop giving oxygen to the shits and look after the interests of our as yet unborn grandchildren

Sadly some are evil, some lack a moral compass, and others are indifferent. The evil ones first drag in the ones without the moral compass and then the indifferent ones.

It's a tragedy though LQ, there is so much we could be doing which could make the country and even the world a better place. It's also tragic that on these threads we still have people crowing because the man who lies and cheats his way through life has won an election.

colouringinpro · 22/12/2019 22:43

pmk. on a tangent, anyone read about the Stormzy debacle. Blatantly and spuriously misquoted by both ITV and BBC. I despair of our media.

Alsohuman · 22/12/2019 22:45

And fucking Allison Pearson. I see ITV had the decency to tweet a correction.

Peregrina · 22/12/2019 22:48

Perhaps MN is uncomfortable with a reference to a historic event?
In which case I would have to repeat that for evil to triumph people need to do nothing.

Peregrina · 22/12/2019 22:51

I suspect the police will be busier than normal.

Contrast that with our million plus demos, where the Police needed to make no arrests, and didn't really have to do much.

SwedishEdith · 22/12/2019 22:54

Placemarking as can't believe Peregrina said anything deletable.

DustyDiamond · 22/12/2019 22:54

I suspect the police will be busier than normal.

Contrast that with our million plus demos, where the Police needed to make no arrests, and didn't really have to do much.

How novel!

Contrasting a completely imaginary occurrence with a real event!

What fun!

Peregrina · 22/12/2019 22:56

Our million on the streets was fact. We do know that when the 'Tommy Robinson' followers get on the streets, arrests follow almost as sure as night follows day.

ChrismArseDarkly · 22/12/2019 23:01

Brexit police out in force since They Won, which is odd since They Won.
But of course, there's nothing to Win and that makes them very very edgy.

It's true Peregrina but hard for people to know what to do and hard to be brave in the face of the 'Vile' (their fave word) media

Dusty01 · 22/12/2019 23:01

I can’t help but think that ringing Big Ben to mark our exit from the EU, might have unintended consequences

I agree that their may be consequences - but I feel they will be intended - rather than unintended.

To me this feels provocative.

chomalungma · 22/12/2019 23:05

To me this feels provocative

There had better not be parties. Organised events by the Government.

When half the country don't want something to happen, you don't go around rubbing their noses in it with celebrations.

Unless you really want to divide this country even further.

Peregrina · 22/12/2019 23:21

I can’t be the only person who’s rejoined in a bid to get a decent leader.

DH has joined too. I hope he doesn't vote for a Corbynista. The Labour Party still does have decent MPs with a conscience.

ChrismArseDarkly · 22/12/2019 23:40

There had better not be parties. Organised events by the Government.

Parties will be compulsory. Boris isn't going to be denied his big moment and it's his money to spaff as he likes now.