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Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

OP posts:
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squid4 · 02/01/2020 16:54

Johnson offering funding for the NHS is like someone offering to call an ambulance for someone they've just assaulted. I suppose it's better than leaving them there. The damage is done though. Though - it's not to be believed anyway. 50,000 nurses except it's not? 40 hospitals except it's not? From a proven liar who's actually been sacked for lying.

I despair.

Piggywaspushed · 02/01/2020 16:54

think Cameron did a good job -at the time- of belying his privileged background. He had a nice , fragrant wife, lovely, state school educated children and appeared a nice family man with distinct issues to overcome with his disabled son which suggested empathy and understanding. May was just meh. I'd never vote Tory anyway but quite liked Sam Cam and felt a bit sorry for May, really. If I feel that as a Lab voter then one can assume Tory leaners liked them more.

dreichnolonger · 02/01/2020 17:00

As someone who felt able to vote for Cameron but not later conservative leaders.
He was pro EU and seemed a lot more modern in terms of attitudes towards women and minorities.
I am a globalist and felt Cameron was too.
I am a centrist who was able to lean to the right but I don't want a hard right government.
I particularly don't want an inward looking, jingoistic English centered leader whose pushes views from the 1950's while living none of them himself.

howabout · 02/01/2020 17:01

Not quite sure why anyone believed they wouldn't

Agreed when they actually did say they would and that "nice" Nick Clegg agreed it was the correct approach.

HesterThrale · 02/01/2020 17:12

squid I completely agree with your list about Johnson. I’d like to add the Nazanin fiasco. That poor woman is still languishing there.
Also I do NOT believe he’ll adequately fund the NHS. Why anyone believes things he’s saying now, with his history, is completely beyond me.

squid I hope you’re feeling a little better. It’s easy to feel despondent right now - I vacillate between that and trying to feel galvanised. The only way is up, and I guess we have to stay strong for the sake of those who are more vulnerable. If we can...

ListeningQuietly · 02/01/2020 17:15

squid4
As they say on the airline safety announcement
fit your own mask before trying to help others
YOU have to look after you and get you into a physical and mental state where you can help others
but you and your family HAVE to come before the rest of us.

RoddySnapper · 02/01/2020 18:04

What is a Globalist - is it reprimanded India West Trading company?

Is it someone who takes many holidays and buys an share in a tree planting scheme?

Employs cheap non UK "help" in the home?

Travels for work?

Someone with a family trust fund?

Someone who buys food with many air miles with the side effects of pricing out the indigenous of their Quona and damages the environment for avocado on toast?

RoddySnapper · 02/01/2020 18:04

*rebranded

DGRossetti · 02/01/2020 18:11

What is a Globalist

Somebody whose answer to climate change involves other people giving up children, air travel etc etc ?

dreichnolonger · 02/01/2020 18:28

Globalist to me means someone who believes the opposite of 'citizen of nowhere'.
Values free trade, movement of people, employing the best people for the job regardless of their country of origin.
I have lived in several countries, don't believe in English exceptionalism and have encouraged my dc to look at the whole world as potentially a place to live and work, not just the country they happened to be born in.
I personally don't have an issue with multi nationals. DH works for one that is much more socially responsible than most of the governments I have lived under.
(Sadly my family hasn't provided a trust fund and the only non EU help we had was when lived outside the EU.)

howabout · 02/01/2020 18:36

dreich my next question would have to be what made Cameron preferable to Brown or Milliband? (It is easier to understand why Corbyn would have been a harder ask for a "Centrist")

malylis · 02/01/2020 18:38

globalist is often a veiled anti semitic insult, as was the citizens of nowhere but nobody picked that up at the time.

derxa · 02/01/2020 18:48

my next question would have to be what made Cameron preferable to Brown or Milliband? It all comes down to who looks and sounds 'like a Prime Minister' Don't they say that an interviewer makes their mind up about an interviewee after a few minutes.

RoddySnapper · 02/01/2020 19:00

So Globololist is an anti working class, anti settled community, anti family, agest, misogynistic and abilist movement?

RoddySnapper · 02/01/2020 19:04

Maybe Extinction Rebellion capitalists will rent you a tent and Donkey for the Utopia you want for us all?

surfiran.com/preservation-of-nomadic-lifestyle/

dreichnolonger · 02/01/2020 19:23

I came from a working class background and don't see being anything anti working class about my beliefs. It is pretty classist to suggest that only the middle class and up can relocate countries, also it doesn't fit with the history of migration.

I'm not insisting others move around to maximize their opportunities, although I'm pretty annoyed that settled communities seem so focused on preventing my family and others from doing so.

I don't mind tents, I spent a lot on teenage summers in them. But having had experience of donkeys you can keep that kind offer!!

Personally I'm both female and have a learning difficulty so I'm not buying that only men with no impairments can be part of this world. I know a lot of women who have been the drivers for the family moving countries or equal partners.

I can't speak for anyone other than myself @howabout but in relation to Milliband I was concerned that he might end up in a coalition with the SNP putting pressure on the Union.
I wanted a UK in the EU with easy flexible links to the rest of the world.
I have reluctantly come to the view that despite short term chaos Scotland's long term future would be better out of the UK and in the EU with flexible links to the rest of the world.
Brown I really liked personally although I thought some of his financial decisions were horribly short term. (I would have voted Lib Dem during his election but I think we were unable to vote for practical reasons in that election.)

dreichnolonger · 02/01/2020 19:28

I don't think settled communities should be worrying about Globalists.
I think they should be worrying about AI and automation.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/01/2020 19:34

"My question was more why were Cameron and May not disgusting to those same people?"

Johnson uses openly racist and homophobic language that no leader of a mainstream party has ever used before in the UK
His language is that of Farage or Griffin, not Thatcher or Major.
He is a demagogue who has a history of lying to whip up feeling against other countries and fear of immigrants.

Many Tories who are conservative because of economic policy had to hold their nose to vote Tory with him as leader
If they hadn't been frightened by the prospect of Corbyn and the hard left, a significant number of them might have voted LDem or Labour instead

BigChocFrenzy · 02/01/2020 19:42

" what made Cameron preferable to Brown or Milliband?"

Brown was punished for the global financial crisis - when people suffer econmically, they often punish whoever is in power
Especially since the Tory media neatly managed to blame Labour for the effects of the GFC

Milliband made some poor decisions and was savaged by the media as every Labour leader has been - except for Blair in the early days after he bought off Murdoch

Not nice to say, but before the 2015 GE both when I lived down South and when I visited family up North, people kept saying he "isn't really English" - being Jewish hurt him with some voters.
A Muslim party leader would suffer far more though.

Xenia · 02/01/2020 19:57

Johnson has been subject to all kinds of unfair criticisms as has Corbyn. The British people however know the truth and voted accordingly. The anti semitic allegations against Corbyn were blown out of all proportio and BJ who is a pro immigration non racist MP - probably one of the most we have ever had of that kind by the way - wrote that muslime women can wear what they liked and could look like pillar boxes. I think the burka is a hideous sexist device used by men to keep women down as probably do many people in the UK and abroad never mind in Saudi but BJ and my views will be the same - as was his article - that women in the Uk should be entitled to dress like that if they want to.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/01/2020 20:07

The more British wc migrants - as in "Auf wiedersehen Pet" ! - who take advantage of foreign opportunities and job mobility, the better.

The problem with globalisation is that although it has benefitted the West too, not just developing countries,
the wealthiest 5% or so have reaped most of the economic benefits, while the wc and lower mc in the West have suffered the pain of the changes.
That's particularly so in countries with greater inequality, such as the UK & USA - and so is the angry backlash against globalisation.

Hence the opportunities for nationalist demagogues to blame "foreign elites",
including openly anti-semitic attacks on liberal Jews like Soros.
Insanely, some rightwing Jews like Netanyahu's son, will RT anti-semitic bile against liberal Jews.

FT (2018 article) Globalism and Globalisation

https://www.ft.com/content/e4593f96-d937-11e8-ab8e-6be0dcf18713

The difference between globalisation and globalism might seem obscure and unimportant, but it matters.

Globalisation is a word used by economists to describe international flows of trade, investment and people.

Globalism is a word used by demagogues to suggest that globalisation is not a process but an ideology - an evil plan, pushed by a shadowy crowd of people called “globalists”.

..... [2018] speech at the UN, Donald Trump declared:
“We reject the ideology of globalism and embrace the doctrine of patriotism.”

..... he again denounced “globalists” at a campaign event,
while the crowd bayed for the imprisonment of George Soros, a Jewish philanthropist regarded as the epitome of “globalism” by the nationalist right.

It is not just the radical right that attacks globalisation as an elite project.

Many on the left have long argued that the international trading system is designed by the rich and harms ordinary people.

But this right-left ideological assault on globalisation is simple-minded and dangerous.
It ignores the benefits that trade has brought, not just to elites, but to ordinary people all over the world.

It suggests that globalisation is a plot rather than a process.
And by promoting nationalism as the antidote to the dreaded “globalism”, it unleashes forces that are economically destructive and politically dangerous.

Between 1993 and 2015 - the heyday of globalisation - the proportion of the world’s population living in extreme poverty almost halved.

International trade has helped to pull billions of people into the global middle class and turned once poverty-stricken countries such as South Korea into wealthy nations.
(North Korea, by contrast, has enjoyed all the benefits of total isolation from global markets.)

mathanxiety · 02/01/2020 20:11

malylis Thu 02-Jan-20 18:38:50

globalist is often a veiled anti semitic insult, as was the citizens of nowhere but nobody picked that up at the time.

It was all picked up on these threads.

Peregrina · 02/01/2020 20:12

My question was more why were Cameron and May not disgusting to those same people?

To my knowledge, neither of those had ever been sacked even once for lying, never mind twice. Both were faithful to their marriage vows, whereas Johnson appears to have cheated on every woman he's had a relationship with. At base, May and Cameron although flawed individuals were, I felt, trying to be decent people. Johnson appears totally amoral.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/01/2020 20:18

Being pro-immigration does not stop him being racist
A racist can prioritise the economy, while attacking immigrants for political benefit

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