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Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

OP posts:
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HateIsNotGood · 01/01/2020 19:58

As I said LQ, I'll have a look at your data links. At first glance it looks a reliable source - I'll have a good look and draw my own conclusions.

Many thanks for giving your own interpretations (with caveats); however I am seeking a wide range data from which I can draw my own interpretations and conclusions from.

Best wishes
Hate

HateIsNotGood · 01/01/2020 20:10

chatongris - that's quite apalling isn't it, no one governing actually having any idea about the amount of population they are trying to provide public services for?

Who are these unknown people? Where do they come from? How do we know they are here? How do they get here? Why do they want to come here? Why have they left? Who have they left?

And so many more questions. I'll read through the links provided and hopefully then all my questions will be answered.

ListeningQuietly · 01/01/2020 20:24

I'll read through the links provided and hopefully then all my questions will be answered.
Good luck.
I've been studying the topic for decades and the more I know the more unknowns I discover.

Remember that anybody travelling on a free movement / visa waiver / reciprocal arrangement needs give no reason for their arrival or departure.

Also remember that many many people who arrived before the rules changed in the 70's have never left the UK since (Windrush etc)

The hostile environment is a significant impediment to good data collection as
eg teenagers trafficked here to run cannabis farms are treated as criminals not victims so have no incentive to talk

chatongris · 01/01/2020 22:24

Who are these unknown people? Where do they come from? How do we know they are here? How do they get here? Why do they want to come here? Why have they left? Who have they left?

You sound shocked at this but it's not that easy for governments to keep tabs on who is in the country and where they are.

The U.K. has no registration system for migrants (it could have one but chooses not to) and no ID card system. Most foreign visitors do not require visas.

Even if the U.K. did have ID cards this wouldn't help with planning services, as no sane ID card scheme would require people to update their card every time they moved.

This is why countries spend a lot of money conducting a census every 10 years. The hostile environment will make the census less reliable though.

lonelyplanetmum · 02/01/2020 07:58

Where do they come from?

Well there are seven possibilities :

Africa
Antarctica- no immigration
Asia
Australasia
Europe- immigration ( of the high net contributors coming from here) is now reduced dramatically.
North America and South America.

So that leaves four continents really. Statistically most immigration to the U.K. now is from Asian countries. We will see this further increase to replace the EU departees and as part of new trading agreements.

With the level of bankruptcies and cost of healthcare etc in the US perhaps we may see some escapees from Trumpdom too?

CrispEater · 02/01/2020 09:43

In response to:
"Even if the U.K. did have ID cards this wouldn't help with planning services, as no sane ID card scheme would require people to update their card every time they moved."
Here in Germany that's exactly what happens. You have to register your new address within a couple of weeks or risk being fined. On the bright side, we always have proof of address without having to resort to gas bills etc.

Peregrina · 02/01/2020 09:56

The War time ones also required you to notify your change of address - there were boxes on the form for this.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/01/2020 11:19

It's very difficult to limit immigration to a particular number without setting an arbitrary maximum, which would prevent some employers getting the people they need

Those employers either freeze or cut back their business, or move some / all of it abroad

DGRossetti · 02/01/2020 11:56

It's very difficult to limit immigration to a particular number without setting an arbitrary maximum, which would prevent some employers getting the people they need

It's even more difficult to limit immigration when you have fuck all intention of doing so.

In fact generally, I find that the less desire there is to see a change to anything, the less change there actually is.

DGRossetti · 02/01/2020 11:56

(pressed too soon Grin)

... with the housing "crisis" being a prime example of this.

DGRossetti · 02/01/2020 14:15

(Also decided to start a thread with this)

UK being put firmly in it's post Brexit place.

Michael Dougan, Professor of European Law, University of Liverpool, Joint Editor, Common Market Law Review, has just tweeted

Writing report for 2020 International Federation of European Law in The Hague. Fascinating example from Portugal: Supreme Court refuses arrest warrant from UK because, post-Brexit, no guarantees that a non-Member State will respect basic human rights. So much for Case C-327/18?!

Two points 1) next time some Leaver claims Brexit won't interfere with UK's international security cooperation, point out it already has-without even happening yet 2) outside world sees what so many Brits can't: Brexit=threat to all our rights / protections against abuse of power

squid4 · 02/01/2020 15:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DustyDiamond · 02/01/2020 15:49

Those figures are entirely different to what ElectionMapsUK posted Confused

Their actual figures:

18-24 only
Lab 544
Con 4

25-49 only
Lab 310
Con 240

50-64 only
Lab 149
Con 421

65+ only
Lab 51
Con 562

squid4 · 02/01/2020 15:56

I am very sorry if I have posted anything inaccurate, thank you for correcting if I have. Can't remember where I saw the picture (I don't have facebook)

DustyDiamond · 02/01/2020 15:57

And the tipping point for age for Labour flip to Tory has gone down now to 39 from 47 at the last election

DustyDiamond · 02/01/2020 16:03

According to YouGov post GE analysis:

The Tories performed better than Labour across all social groups, but very more so in C2DE (48% vs 33%) than ABC1 (43% vs 33%)

Labour did far better among those with a degree or higher though (43% vs 29%)

Those without a degree were more Tory than Labour (58% vs 25%)

squid4 · 02/01/2020 16:08

I will ask for the picture to be deleted if it is inaccurate, wait up

The rest of my post stands

squid4 · 02/01/2020 16:09

Anecdotally the few younger people I knew who voted for Cameron or May were disgusted and terrified by Johnson.

Piggywaspushed · 02/01/2020 16:23

The pic isn't inaccurate as such : it is just redoing the rounds now and is actually about local gov elections iirc.

howabout · 02/01/2020 16:28

Anecdotally the few younger people I knew who voted for Cameron or May were disgusted and terrified by Johnson.

Why? - other than his commitment to Leave the EU

TatianaLarina · 02/01/2020 16:45

Why?

Are people disgusted by Johnson? 🤔

Let me count the ways...

squid4 · 02/01/2020 16:48

The lying, racism, sexism
The terrible track record in office
The endless broken promises in office and personally
The belief he wants to no deal brexit for profit, none of them believed he would do any kind of a safe brexit (and they were largely remainers)
Who is financing him / advising him
Sacking all the tory moderates, aligning with brexit party and the far right
Closing down parliament illegally
Lying to the queen
"a complete embarrassment on the world stage" (from a previously tory mate)
His refusal to engage with climate change (fossil fuel backers etc)

Also a lot of things people said wouldn't happen or be that bad when they voted tory in 2015 have happened - eg the NHS on its knees, public services stripped.

All that I wrote about ITUs overwhelmed/shutting and hospitals regularly on divert has been deleted along with the picture. Oh well. Not really anything we can do about it now. I have never been this hopeless. Staffing has gone off a cliff edge and all good will is gone.

dreichnolonger · 02/01/2020 16:49

I think the racist, homophobic comments didn't help.
His tone was very different to Cameron's.

howabout · 02/01/2020 16:49

My question was more why were Cameron and May not disgusting to those same people? In terms of public spending on eg NHS Johnson is promising to increase it where Cameron and May only ever offered more and more Austerity.

squid4 · 02/01/2020 16:51

Well, the tories hadn't done those things at that point.
Now they have.
Not quite sure why anyone believed they wouldn't Hmm