Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
CrissmussMockers · 30/12/2019 20:48

....and a banquet for the rats down along the Quomps.

If You left your front garden like that, they'd fine you.

BigChocFrenzy · 30/12/2019 21:38

Long marked as a potential future Tory leader ... if the grownups ever regain control:

Tom Tugendhat@TomTugendhat

This... while the others sleep some act.

This is the new world in which we must operate.
We need to get together with mid-sized democracies and defend the interests we share.

China, Russia and Iran to hold joint naval drills from Friday

www.reuters.com/article/us-china-iran-russia/china-russia-and-iran-to-hold-joint-naval-drills-from-friday-idUSKBN1YU0FI
.......
Lewis Goodall@lewisgoodall

This tweet hints at a theme of the coming decade.

We will likely (quietly) spend a lot of time trying to recreate elements of the institutions/programmes we are about to leave
and to (very quietly) try and secure various opt ins to many of the things we have spent years decrying.

RedToothBrush · 31/12/2019 00:38

Tom Tugendhat generally has been filed in my brain in the same folder that Rory Stewart was in for a long time. The sensible MP folder.

He's not without fault, but I do have more time for him than a lot of other MPs.

OP posts:
thecatfromjapan · 31/12/2019 00:59

I chatted to the local Conservatives at the polling station a while back. All 4 of them named either TT or RS as their favoured Leader.

And yet we have Johnson.

Bizarre state of affairs.

chatongris · 31/12/2019 01:15

We need to get together with mid-sized democracies and defend the interests we share.

Lol. He's trolling right? No one could possibly say with a straight face.

CendrillonSings · 31/12/2019 01:33

Not bizarre at all. Whatever their other undoubted talents, neither TT nor RS would have put a dent in the Red Wall by running on a Remainery platform, and might well have gifted Corbyn his hung Parliament by getting caught in a pincer between him and Farage. As has often been noted, the Conservative Party is an election-winning machine designed to keep socialists out of power, not a social club of the sort its opponents seem to be running...

TheABC · 31/12/2019 01:45

Labour has five years to get their act together. Johnson has five years to lose his. Thinking about the timelines:

-Brexit needs to be buried. More crucially, the economic effects of it need to be muffled before the next election. It's looking like a bare bones FTA at best now, so depending on the detail we could see a lot of the services sector sit up and scream. I think manufacturers are already resigned to the broken trade alignment in 2021.

  • He needs to show a sense of optimism and movement. The paralysis killed May's Government more thoroughly than any pronouncement. In particular, the northern voters want to see progress. That's going to be hard: most government projects take 18 months to get off the ground (minimum). I am trying to think of the last big infrastructure project that was done and dusted in 4 years. Anything he puts in place now for infrastructure is deferring the feel-good factor to the next elected Parliament.
  • Northern Ireland is quiet, not dead. Johnson may have caved on the border in the sea, but that does not mean Stormont will be happy about it.
  • Ditto Scotland. The SNP may end up being the most effective opposition we have for the next year.
  • I still can't believe Cummings is taking on MOD procurement alongside a Civil Service reshuffle.
CrissmussMockers · 31/12/2019 09:47

Like Ellwood, Tom Tugendhat is very good on foreign affairs and security, but still a Tory when it comes to social policy. The tories who were good on that have all gone: Stewart, Allen, Lee, Wollastone etc.

Peregrina · 31/12/2019 10:07

but still a Tory when it comes to social policy.

Yet I would be pretty sure that this is what the Red Wall new Tories will expect them to deliver.

At the moment the media is shouting about a 6.2% increase in the minimum wage, or the 'National Living Wage'. That's an increase from £8.21 to £8.72, so 51p, which is not exactly a big increase in my book.

CrissmussMockers · 31/12/2019 10:19

Working-class attitudes to benefits are complex. The Momentumey idea that the peasants can be made to feel outrage at the privilige of the super-rich just won't fly. All they think of when they see the super-rich is, Wish I was rich like that. Envy but not jealousy.

What outrages them is the perceived unfairness of the system at the ground level where they live, where her over the road gets x but I don't get y, etc.

They won't be attracted to a message of other people will pay more taxes but not you half as much as a message of other people will get their benefits cut but not me.

Cherrypi · 31/12/2019 10:54

£930 extra a year is a lot if your on £16k. I worked out I'll get £20 more a month and I'm part time.

Peregrina · 31/12/2019 11:07

It's the way the increase has been presented which gets me - National Wage raised by 6% etc. But 6% of nothing, is still nothing. A wage of less than £10 an hour isn't going to help someone buy a house in the south east, for example.

DGRossetti · 31/12/2019 11:15

I am trying to think of the last big infrastructure project that was done and dusted in 4 years

The first Severn Bridge ?

Most of the delays in modern infrastructure projects arise from inventing new ways to funnel the cash into bonuses and dividends.

Cherrypi · 31/12/2019 11:26

It'll be interesting to see what proportion of the population will now be on national minimum wage. Full time minimum wage is now 15k take home. Outside London £30k take home should be enough currently assuming no debt, no health problems or additional needs, two kids, a stable job with guaranteed hours, good landlord etc. It's all the other factors that need help that are harder to fix.

howabout · 31/12/2019 12:08

Some evidence in the employment stats that increasing the minimum wage plus the conditionality within UC are driving a move away from low paid self-employment to regular hours NLW jobs.

squid4 · 31/12/2019 12:11

I agree with the things catfromjapan said yesterday.
I'm angry and exhausted and out of good will.
I am disgusted with my country. Two old men at the pub the other day saying it had gone to to dogs. "No one cares about each other any more."
I was doing the work of three doctors every time I turned up. Gaps and sickness and vacancies every shift.
We health care professionals have been keeping this government afloat by papering over the cracks and doing so much with less and less, they are lying to us and laughing at us. Teachers the same I know.
I'm done.
I#'m cared out. Totally cared out. I'm a shit mum right now too.
If I do go back, I am refusing to work outside of my own city's hospital. Where the population actually care about each other.

I am also completely sick of why everyone is more interested in how much penance they can drag from labour supporters while no one is fucking looking at what these tories are actually doing. If you can call them tories, obviously they have sacked what we used to call tories.

Everyone I know is absolutely furious. Not seen a reaction like this to an election before, usually people shrug. Not sure where we put that fury.

Peregrina · 31/12/2019 12:13

Absolutely Squid.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 31/12/2019 12:29

I am also completely sick of why everyone is more interested in how much penance they can drag from labour supporters while no one is fucking looking at what these tories are actually doing

^^This

ListeningQuietly · 31/12/2019 13:11

The Minimum wage increase is going to lead to significant job losses
because once you add in ERS NI of 13.8% on top
and the 3% ERS pension minimum

when ranged against care providers and public sector bodies like schools that have not had a funding increase

the only way to square the circle is to let staff go

howabout · 31/12/2019 13:25

Experience to date suggests not Listening. If you believe your analysis I'm guessing you are ecstatic Labour didn't get in (instant 5% pay rise for NHS and £10 MW). Even the FT is arguing for increases to the NMW today. Shock

The increase in the NI threshold will be offsetting for employers. The increase in the NLW also cuts the benefit bill because it is mostly clawed back within UC.

Cherrypi · 31/12/2019 13:39

I was thinking that will hit school budgets with lots of learning support assistants on minimum wages.

PawFives · 31/12/2019 13:54

As always, some really good points being made. I must admit I feel a bit despondent at the moment. Labour absolutely have to think about where to go next, and there aren’t any easy answers or quick fixes. It’s a situation that’s been a long time coming and won’t go away after Brexit is “done” (we all know banning the word won’t make the problems go away!). However, my worry is that all this reflection about what is wrong with Labour and what they do next helps amplify the narrative that current problems are somehow Labour’s fault and any future problems we face will be too (plus Remainers, the EU etc.). The same way the Tories managed to change the narrative around the financial crash away from reckless bankers, too little regulation, an unsustainable market etc. to Labour overspending and it all being the fault of people on benefits and EU immigrants.

howabout · 31/12/2019 14:07

Paw tbf Labour were in power for more than a decade prior to the financial crash. They radically changed the system of financial regulation in a way which rewarded excessive risk and cut oversight.

howabout · 31/12/2019 14:12

Cherry Scotland already has a higher voluntary NLW (above £9). The majority of public sector contracts have it as a bidding condition so applies to care workers, hospital cleaners, teaching assistants etc.

Scotland unemployment rate is in line with rUK.

ListeningQuietly · 31/12/2019 14:30

howabout
I never expected Labour to get in. I hoped for a hung parliament.

NI threshold - I've not seen the confirmed figure for ERS NI for next year.
The key point is that the minimum wage is rising but the budgets given to public sector employers are not.
More and more employees are having their wages rise on an unfunded basis

Funding formulae in Scotland are different than England - not comparable.

All the puff and spending promises in the election will merely bring school per pupil funding back to what it was in 2009
and schools are letting staff go.
Care providers are on a knife edge and a shortage of posted worker EU staff will make it critical.

I had very, very much hoped that Austerity would be ending as it is doing irreparable harm to the country.
Sadly we have a liar in Downing street and a deluded old fool sitting opposite him.

Swipe left for the next trending thread