Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

[RedToothBrush]

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

Don't forget though, BigChoc and others, there has been a qualifications creep upwards. 50 years ago it was possible to qualify as a solicitor with A levels, or it might even have been possible with O levels. But - the majority of people did not get O levels. I think the school leaving age was raised to 16 in 1975.

I still think the Progressives are looking at 20 years out of power.

I think we’re potentially looking at 20 year or so wave of populist hard rightism globally. Whether the right manages to retain power In the U.K. for all of that time remains to be seen.

Historically, right wing populism flourishes and then betrays - ending in disillusion/overthrow and shame.

In the U.K. the rise of the hard right has given the dying Tory party - and its support is literally dying with its ageing voters - a short term boost. The Tories are currently riding this populist right wing wave. But that doesn’t alter the fact that in the long term support for Conservative values is diminishing. I don’t think the embrace of populism will be enough to preserve the Tories in the long run, and it may be that Brexit will expedite their demise.

thecat You have to look at social attititudes then, not now
Homosexuality to much of the population was still regarded then as disgusting
Less than 20 years earlier, men were jailed for it
They were often still ostracised

My view then was to admire what the Thatcher govt did on the particular issue of Aids
Labour & Ldems supported the policies in that area and had nothing better to offer

The UK response was better than most other countries managed

Homosexuality to much of the population was still regarded then as disgusting

This and the attitude towards unmarried mothers has done a complete about turn. I wonder why/

In the U.K. the rise of the hard right has given the dying Tory party - and its support is literally dying with its ageing voters - a short term boost. The Tories are currently riding this populist right wing wave. But that doesn’t alter the fact that in the long term support for Conservative values is diminishing. I don’t think the embrace of populism will be enough to preserve the Tories in the long run, and it may be that Brexit will expedite their demise.
But the Labour party are in the grip of Momentum and there is no one strong enough to reshape the party to make it appealing to the majority of people. Brexit is a non issue now.

"I still think the Progressives are looking at 20 years out of power."

Normally so after a heavy defeat
However, in these very unusual circumstances, it depends on how much the Tories can deliver to their new voters - and how much Brexit makes things worse.

Many new Tory voters either chose them out of desperation for someone to reverse the downwards slide of decades,
and / or because they found Corbyn and the hard left toxic

Labour can choose to correct the latter quickly, or continue in a hard left ideological bubble
and the Tories will struggle to satisfy voters who seem to have little patience or liking for politicians

So, it depends on what both the Labour and Tory parties choose, as well as Brexit and how the lobal economy behaves
5 / 10 / 20 .... or indeed permanent Tory rule in England at least, if Labour split and / or the UK splits

Brexit is a non issue now.

Johnson may have banned it, but like climate change, it doesn't just go away if you don't talk about it.

I know that, BigChoc.

But the point I'm trying to make is that those 'social attitudes' were engineered and utilised - and those social attitudes had a material impact. A massive impact.

There is a massive hole in our understanding of our present moment. That 'hole' has a lot to do with AIDS, I think.

At the time, it was like living in a reality split in two. In one reality, AIDS was a day to day reality. In the other, it was a margin that bounded the 'normal, a cordon sanitaire of the acceptable.

And part of the problem now is a cultural forgetting.

I do think we aren't looking closely enough at the roots of present-day populism in that moment.

For example, when I look at social media leftists, I think they circle a collective, residual guilt, and draw a lot of support from that guilt.

And, on the other hand, a lot of the hard right are re-utilising the discursive tricks ('othering') of that period.

Worse, I think a cultural forgetting has meant many Progressives haven't learnt lessons - primarily about how to deal with radical failure - that they could learn.

Don't forget Clause 28 either (she says, possibly herself forgetting the number) which up until shockingly recently prohibited teachers from 'promoting' homosexuality. Fortunately now we are, on the whole , cushioned form this, although some noises made pre election concerned me.

Certainly , gay teachers were really not at all open about their sexuality until quite recently, as they were sometimes told by heads that is would damage their careers or contravene Clause 28.

" Brexit is a non issue now"

It will certainly affect the economy for at least the next couple of decades

How much it does, will determine whether Brexit is regarded as not such a big deal after all,
or as a disastrous Tory adventure that they conned the country into

• enough voters would turn on the party if it's seen to be a disaster and of course that would also speed up NI and possibly Scotland leaving the UK

I think the choice of next Labour leader is going to be crucial.

I just strongly suspect it's going to be continuity Corbyn.

As so many people on this thread have said, the roots of Corbynism are a left-wing populism.

🤷‍♀️

Yes, there's hope that things may work out.

But I'm really not feeling that hope at the moment.

And, while we are on that subject 'Sir' Ian Duncan Smith naturally voted against the abolition of Section 28.

And who was one of the Tory good guys?? 'Not Sir' John Bercow...

I really worry when I look ahead.

The Thatcher government was a broad church and pluralistic compared to Johnson's version of the Conservatives.

And, again, so many others on this thread have said this.

Maybe we should just re-name these threads They Cassandra Chronicles'?

The hard left see a possible Brexit-driven economic crash as a once-only opportunity for Labour to get in again for years, whoever the leader, however far left the policies

• Desperate and angry voters swinging from rightwing populism to the leftwing type.

Hence why they are fighting so hard, much more so than after Foot lost in 1983

Johnson may have banned it, but like climate change, it doesn't just go away if you don't talk about it. I know. I think Brexit is a disastrous idea but it's happening. Johnson managed to get a WA and he may get an acceptable trade deal. Who knows.

And I do think that people need to think - and be held to account for - what they voted for.

They won't. Christmas at the in-laws and the thrilling conversation turned to needing a new hoover and how powerful they are... There is absolutely no way they will ever join the dots about anything.

The hard left see a possible Brexit-driven economic crash as a once-only opportunity for Labour to get in again for years, whoever the leader, however far left the policies Well they're deluded. I've just watched Tony Blair's analysis of the Election. It's stunning in its clarity.

Totally agree, BigChoc.

And with your 'deluded', derxa.

derxa After a big enough economic crisis, all previous voting patterns disintegrate
I live in the country which most illustrated this

BJ got a WA because he made concessions that May wouldn't, over NI

To get a trade deal with comparable access, he'll have to abandon her other red lines too
To be fair, he is probably the only PM who could get away with BRINO

The hard left know they'd never be elected in normal times

Brexit is a once-only peacetime chance of the kind of disaster that enables massive political change

Hence why they are fighting so hard, much more so than after Foot lost in 1983 Blair pointed out that the hard left wingers were expelled then. Now it's the centre left people who are being got rid of. I'll eat my hat if a dreary non entity like Rebecca L-B can reshape the Labour party.

To be fair, he is probably the only PM who could get away with BRINO
I think he will do exactly that.

It doesn't even have to be a total disaster:

Many new Tory voters were just desperate and chose the hope of something better
.... despite nearly 10 years of Tory govt

It's a good trick, to convince people that BJ is nothing to do with the previous Tory govts
but he has to deliver

The public may not be very patient if it's just a continuation of the previous 10 years, yet more struggling