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Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

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CrissmussMockers · 28/12/2019 12:44

UK gun laws work pretty well but could do with tightening here and there: Require deactivated weapons to be more thoroughly disabled. Air guns are far too easy to acquire. And now the nice man has brought it to our attention, no good or valid reason for keeping a shotgun at home in an urban area.

howabout · 28/12/2019 13:43

Continuity nothing obtuse about DGR's comment.

The fewer legal guns there are circulating and the tighter regulation of them the harder it is to circulate illegal ones.

BlaueLagune · 28/12/2019 14:39

UK Athletics are making themselves a pain in the behind at the moment. If you want your track event to count officially it has to be started with a gun (as opposed to a whistle or just saying "3, 2, 1 go"). And if you want a gun, you need a gun licence, as well as your athletics starter licence. I think there are electronic ones, but not sure how you get hold of one of those.

I am a timekeeper, it is somewhat easier to get hold of a stopwatch!

BigChocFrenzy · 28/12/2019 15:28

The IDS Knighthood - for UC ?

BigChocFrenzy · 28/12/2019 15:38

German gunlaws are much less strict than the UK
and when I walk through the fields I can often hear hunters shooting either vermin, or hare, deer etc to eat

I don't own any firearms - and as I'm visually disabled, I'm sure the neighbours are thankful ! Xmas Smile
I would never use poison - that really is cruel, as well as being very dangerous to other animals and children

So I'd have to club any vermin to death, since harsh language wouldn't cut it and I'm not getting close enough to wring the neck of anything that has sharp teeth

ListeningQuietly · 28/12/2019 16:18

I shall sit and check the whole of the honours (the middling ones are the most interesting

when I have finished my jigsaw

ContinuityError · 28/12/2019 16:21

I actually said it's taking longer to process applications due to fewer firearms licensing officers in place covering larger areas, my other point being that criminals are obviously not going to register any firearms - I'm not sure how anyone can then make the leap to suggesting I wanted to "liberalise gun laws to ensure criminals can get them legally".

The fewer legal guns there are circulating and the tighter regulation of them the harder it is to circulate illegal ones.

It doesn't necessarily work that way in the UK though. Illegal firearms will always circulate, and the tightening of gun regulations in the UK has in reality led to new ways of circumventing those regulations.

CrissmussMockers · 28/12/2019 16:27

There was a massive spike in the import of illegal firearms in the 90s and early 00s, mostly squaddies coming back from wars with trophies.

ContinuityError · 28/12/2019 16:46

@BlaueLagune - it's because some starting pistols can be adapted to fire live rounds (just one of those new ways to get round tighter regulations). My swim club had a good little hand held electronic start gun, but they are hard to track down. When it finally died we invested in the Swiss Timing (Omega) Starttime system as well - it was about £1k a few years ago for just the box and microphone (you'd need the E-gun for athletics).

www.swisstiming.com/fileadmin/Resources/Data/Datasheets/DOCM_MS_StartTimeV_1015_EN.pdf

ContinuityError · 28/12/2019 16:57

In other news ...

A list of more than 1,000 addresses of New Years Honours recipients, including those of senior police officers and politicians, has been accidentally published by the government.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50929543

zerofeeling · 28/12/2019 17:20

Gosh, I hope no one goes round IBS's house and shouts hurtful comments at him! Shock

CrissmussMockers · 28/12/2019 17:37

Dame Olive Neutron Bomb????

For services to not being dead yet???

DGRossetti · 28/12/2019 18:25

A list of more than 1,000 addresses of New Years Honours recipients, including those of senior police officers and politicians, has been accidentally published by the government.

remind me again, why we are supposed to ever trust any government with any of our personal details ?

Once again, trying to sell an ID card is set back a decade.

Piggywaspushed · 28/12/2019 18:25

O N-J has done a huge amount for a wide range of children's, environmental and health charities, to be fair.

DGRossetti · 28/12/2019 18:36

German gunlaws are much less strict than the UK

Well, yes, but you need to remember the last person that really cracked down on them ...

The idea behind the US 2nd amendment is a direct reaction to the order of the British governor (in the name of the tyrant King George) that colonialists give up their arms. It's the constitutional equivalent of annually running naked round your garden widdershins in a prime number formed by your age and shoe size keeping elephants at bay[1] as a means of preventing tyranny.

[1]Well I do it once a year and have never seen an elephant ...

Given what harm the police manage to do with guns to innocent people (when they aren't leaving them in supermarket toilets) there should be a review of that as well.

FUSOI · 28/12/2019 19:25

thecatfromjapan
""The New European is reporting that Tom Watson has revealed he left the Labour Party following a death threat from a Labour Party member.""

I suspect he wasn't the only one as a lot of stuff has gone on. Don't condone it in anyway.

But don't kid yourself he left because he knew what the result was going to be and would of been worse of he had stayed. I acn fully understand how the way he went on and things he said pissed off a lot of people that have provided him an extremely good living for a long time.

It goes back to the original point in this thread about not listening.

Someone mentioned foxes, remember Phoney Toney one major achievement at end of the 1st term was "We banned Fox Hunting". This may of been high on the Labour Activists wish list, but run of the mill labour voters couldn't give a monkeys about it as had more important things on their mind.

Shows how far and how long they have been out of touch with their voters and no real surprise most drifted away from what was really a Tory Government with the Token Gesture that was John Prescott.

HesterThrale · 28/12/2019 19:26

Bigchoc lots of people think IDS should not get a knighthood.

www.change.org/p/uk-government-and-parliament-we-object-to-iain-duncan-smith-receiving-a-knighthood

ListeningQuietly · 28/12/2019 19:30

Olivia Newton John gets a gong for her breast cancer research work ....
60% of the takings from her auction went to the Cancer centre
and she has said she'll sell the jacket again when the time comes

Piggywaspushed · 29/12/2019 15:09

In The ST today is a magazine supplement with pictures of the decade which includes the rather nauseating one form election night with Boris Johnson fist pumping , Carrie S laughing and Domini C standing in the background with a bloody scarf on (my boss does this, too : weird - is it a fear of ageing?) looking all Svengali like.

I have noticed that Cummings has his top on inside out ! I know he is a scruffbag and also know you people perhaps have studied him more closely than me? Does he have form for this? Is it an affectation?

I have googled and it doesn't seem that anyone else pointed this out...

DGRossetti · 29/12/2019 17:50

I have noticed that Cummings has his top on inside out ! I know he is a scruffbag and also know you people perhaps have studied him more closely than me? Does he have form for this? Is it an affectation?

Maybe it's some weird masonic code, like McCartneys shoeless trot across the zebra crossing signalling the uprising of "Helter Skelter".

(I'm trying to make myself more efficient for the coming dark ages by listening to two podcasts simultaneously one in each ear).

ListeningQuietly · 29/12/2019 18:17

Had a family meal today
all of them are what should be natural Tory voters
(public school, military, city types)
not one did
but all regarded Corbyn at ballot box toxic
and until Labour accept that we have a broken system

ListeningQuietly · 29/12/2019 18:18

Should the battle bus have read
Lib Dem - stuck in the middle with you
?

squid4 · 29/12/2019 18:20

I'm still off sick, still not sleeping properly, having nightmares about cardiac arrests with no staff, feel so guilty
I phoned a mate and he said he'd spent the day deciding which patient in the corridor needed oxygen the most and sharing around the limited portable stuff we have
He said it's very unsurprising I've burned out. he has had several months off a couple of times previously
Everyone is burning out
Everyone says it's just a matter of when they leave, not if
Never ever seen a winter like this
my A&E has been 150-200% capacity nonstop since November, at all times of day. I have the data
Lots of people are dying.
None of this is in the "news", if you can call the lying/tory sycophancy they do "news" any more (how do those 'journalists' sleep at night?)
My whole city seems very bleak and muted. Went to see some friends and everyone was so so so angry. I don't know. Where that will be channelled. I don't know anyone under 45 or in this city who voted for this.
Racism has got a lot worse, completely unsurprisingly. If you elect/enable a racist. I see Britain first are joining the Tory party on mass.

TatianaLarina · 29/12/2019 18:27

I’ve already signed the IDS petition this morning. 😈

ListeningQuietly · 29/12/2019 18:37

squid4
Ignore the Britain First join the Tories shite
its too late for that as UKIP joined en masse years ago - they had a policy of local party capture
and TBH the Tory party internal membership is irrelevant at the moment

the Key thing is to get Labour to take its head out of its arse

and then the libdems to recognise the difference between an arse and a vagina

only once there is a functioning opposition can there be progress

between now and then, in the words of Hawkwind
think only of yourself
as only by being strong yourself can you help others when the time comes

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