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Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

OP posts:
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TatianaLarina · 27/12/2019 20:36

Poor Mr Fox. 🦊

TatianaLarina · 27/12/2019 20:36

...

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism
Frankiestein402 · 27/12/2019 20:37

In order for us to hand back the chagos islands we would have to 'take back control' of Diego Garcia from the USA - perhaps Boris and Mr Farage would like to campaign for that....

thecatfromjapan · 27/12/2019 21:10

The New European is reporting that Tom Watson has revealed he left the Labour Party following a death threat from a Labour Party member.

I don't really have the words to express how depressing I think that is.

Something in our politics needs to change - and fast.

Peregrina · 27/12/2019 22:08

I grew up in an area of rural poverty and for small farmers it was very serious losing lambs to foxes, much worse than losing a couple of chickens

Quite. The farmer opposite our house just used to despatch foxes with his shotgun.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/12/2019 23:43

I feel safer if a lawyer uses a club rather than a gun - a farmer is more likely to know how to use a gun sensibly !

However, I've no problem with any reasonably quick method of dispatch
Foxes are predators that cost farmers a lot of money

Nothing to be sentimental about
A blow to the head is probably more humane than much of what goes on in the slaughter houses that provide our meat

He's a bellend for other reasons, but I have no fucks to give about disposing of a fox

prettybird · 28/12/2019 00:05

We used to have a silverbacked jackal pelt that was kept on the back of an arm chair: the jackal has been in the hen coop when my dad was a farmer (before we came to the UK), so he shot it.

It was an object of curiosity when I was wee - I'd almost forgotten about it but this conversation has brought back memories.

chatongris · 28/12/2019 08:05

I want to know why everyone is on the fox's side, and not the chickens'.

It seems that there is a modern parable in there somewhere.

CrissmussMockers · 28/12/2019 08:18

The Chagos Islanders want nothing to do with Mauritius who are only after the fishing rights.

Now hands up who can tell me the difference between the Chagosians and the Falkland Islanders?

eurochick · 28/12/2019 08:41

Shotgun licences in London are common. I have a firearms licence myself and the chap from the Met who did it said the highest number in any area is in the London borough of Clapham. Shotguns and firearms have to be kept unloaded in locked safes, that are attached to solid walls and the ammo has to be kept in a separate safe.

mathanxiety · 28/12/2019 08:50

PMK.

AuldAlliance · 28/12/2019 09:13

Chrissmuss
Falkland Islanders have never been prevented from returning home after they had travelled elsewhere for medical treatment, or had to watch their dogs being drowned in the ocean as a prelude to being forcibly deported?
Few Falkland Islanders have died of "sagrin" or killed themselves after the dispersal of their entire community and the destruction of their way of life?
The UK has never deported the population of Falkland Islands and then tried to get those who later settled in the UK to go elsewhere, offering them plane tickets (but not to the Chagos, obviously...) when they applied for housing benefit, although they hold UK passports?

I give up. What's the answer?

AuldAlliance · 28/12/2019 09:21

Sorry: the dogs were gassed. Then the bodies thrown in the ocean. My mistake.

ContinuityError · 28/12/2019 09:22

It’s getting harder to get firearms certificates hereabouts now - mainly due to cutting down the number of police officers doing the background checks and giving them larger areas to cover (DC was a member of the local rifle club and this was always a hot topic). DH is a referee for a friend with a shotgun and he always gets asked to verify that his friend is a suitable person.

the Windmill in the Downs. Also I think it is its address which is compromised due to his penchant for self-publicity

I don’t think the fact that Maugham owns the Jack Windmill has ever been that much of a secret? Local paper reported him buying it several years ago and you can rent the house for short stays (if you have deep pockets).

ContinuityError · 28/12/2019 10:03

Soooo ... IDS gets a knighthood in New Year’s Honours?

CrissmussMockers · 28/12/2019 10:08

AuldAlliance

Well there does seem to be a double-standard here, even if they both have a huge military base on their territory.

So what is the difference between these people:

And these people:

If only we could see what it was???

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism
Westminstenders: Social Conservativism
TatianaLarina · 28/12/2019 10:13

Well the chickens survived. I’m more on the side of treating animals humanely.

I live in an area where foxes are a proper menace - I still wouldn’t club one to death.

DGRossetti · 28/12/2019 10:13

It’s getting harder to get firearms certificates hereabouts now

No bad thing ...

TatianaLarina · 28/12/2019 10:14

IDS gets a knighthood in New Year’s Honours?

Great innit.

CrissmussMockers · 28/12/2019 10:17

It's getting to the stage where not having an honour is an honour, in that it sets you apart from all the time-servers and arse-lickers.

Peregrina · 28/12/2019 10:46

I give up. What's the answer?

Come on, that's easy. The Chagos Islanders lived there for generations and their skins are brown. The Falklanders are -immigrants settlers with white skins.

ContinuityError · 28/12/2019 10:51

It’s getting harder to get firearms certificates hereabouts now

No bad thing ...

Except that the need for a firearms certificate won’t worry nutters or criminals anyway - either reactivate decommissioned or obsolete weapons and trade them on the black market, or steal them.

chatongris · 28/12/2019 11:06

I live in an area where foxes are a proper menace - I still wouldn’t club one to death.

Agree.

Nevertheless it's very 2010s that the animal with fur gets more sympathy than the animals without fur.

You can apply this maxim to almost everything, especially on mumsnet and twitter.

DGRossetti · 28/12/2019 11:22

Except that the need for a firearms certificate won’t worry nutters or criminals anyway - either reactivate decommissioned or obsolete weapons and trade them on the black market, or steal them.

Your point being ? We need to liberalise gun laws to ensure criminals can get them legally ?

ContinuityError · 28/12/2019 11:32

Don’t be deliberately obtuse DGR, that gets tiresome. My point is that making certificate processing times longer for people who legitimately wish to hold a firearm does nothing to prevent criminals getting hold of and using unregistered / illegal / stolen guns.