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Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

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DGRossetti · 27/12/2019 12:12

How well do we all think Jolyon Maugham will do on funding his legal challenges after rather clubbing his reputation in the foot yesterday ?

It's all a little bit odd, isn't it. Whilst you might think the papers have it in for him for daring to challenge the doctrine or Brexit, it's hard to deny that he's certainly loaded the gun, taken the safety off, and passed it to them with the instruction "I wonder what would happen if you pulled that funny little curved pin down there while that end with the hole is pointing at me ?"

Also, is the reporting that he owns a shotgun, while living in London correct ? Quite aside from making his house a magnet for thick thieves (and we know his home address has been compromised), it's not something I'd feel massively comfortable about. Assuming he either shoots clays, or pheasants - neither of which can be done in his own house - the gun should be kept safely at a club.

I'm probably a little odd in thinking the UKs gun laws are far too lax and really need a damn good tightening up.

ListeningQuietly · 27/12/2019 12:24

Shotguns can be kept pretty much anywhere (in a locked cabinet)
there will be many thousands in London.
The number of deaths from shotguns is pretty low (outside Midsomer)

Its less the killing of the fox - apparently he tweets regularly about the stress of keeping chickens in London
than the supreme arrogance of thinking that it was an appropriate message to send out on Boxing Day when this had just been in the news
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/dec/25/foxhunting-carries-on-with-impunity-says-former-police-chief

prettybird · 27/12/2019 12:43

To have a shotgun licence, you must provide evidence that the shotgun is kept safely and securely locked up (preferably in a good gun cabinet) - and the police will come and check.

Many many years ago, I had a shotgun licence even though I didn't have my own shotgun, just so that I could transport my (at the time) boyfriend's shotgun from his house to the clay pigeon shooting club in my own car. I had to explain that to the police who came to visit.

DGRossetti · 27/12/2019 13:25

Nope - gun laws could still be tighter.

The number of deaths from shotguns is pretty low (outside Midsomer)

Which would mean something if the UK did evidence based policy. but we don't. So it isn't.

howabout · 27/12/2019 13:57

I think he keeps the shotgun at his other house - the Windmill in the Downs. Also I think it is its address which is compromised due to his penchant for self-publicity and crowd funded renovations.

Somewhat puzzled at him keeping the hens in London and spending Christmas there when he has a country retreat.

Desperately bleaching my brain of the kimono images especially as I now have visions of him silkily wafting amongst the sails.

RedToothBrush · 27/12/2019 15:21

Jolyon has been a massive bellend of late.

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BigChocFrenzy · 27/12/2019 17:16

Killing a fox doesn't bother me, providing he killed it with one blow rather than with a mad axeman routine

What does make him a bellend is that iirc, he's another who threw women over the side because he thinks we aren't as important as TRAs

He didn't publicise his own address - one of the Brexiters / rightwingers did that (wasn't a GC feminist)

BigChocFrenzy · 27/12/2019 17:18

He crowdfunded via Goodlaw project for several causes, incl all the actions for Joanne Cherry & co vs the govt over Brexit

Xenia · 27/12/2019 17:23

Most people whether veang, anti or pro hunting would kill any animal which was injured like that to put it out of its misery. it is the humane thing to do.

I have rarely agreed with his good law projects but I support his right to have different views from others and indeed to kill foxes of course. Just because they have cute faces doesn't mean it is worse to kill them than a spider or microbe or fish.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/12/2019 17:47

Yep, I'm not sentimental about foxes;
I grew up in an area of rural poverty and for small farmers it was very serious losing lambs to foxes, much worse than losing a couple of chickens

yolofish · 27/12/2019 17:54

I hate foxes with a passion (chickens passim) but I dont think I would club one over the head unless it was obviously critically injured. And even then I would have to gird every loin etc. (I once had to do this to a quail which had had its eyes pecked out, it wasnt very nice but quail are stupid, suicidal birds anyway).

BigChocFrenzy · 27/12/2019 17:56

Govts of all parties have acted shamefully wrt the rightful inhabitants of the Chagos Islands
but after the ICJ ruling and UN vote, it's outrageous to continue riding roughshod over a much weaker population:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-50924704

The UK has been accused of committing "crimes against humanity" for refusing to allow people to return to their former homes on the Chagos Islands, despite a ruling earlier this year by the United Nation's highest court.

Describing Britain's behaviour as stubborn and shameful, the prime minister of Mauritius, Pravind Jugnauth, told the BBC that
he was exploring the possibility of bringing charges of crimes against humanity against individual British officials at the International Criminal Court (ICC).
....

Earlier this year, Mauritius won a major victory against Britain when the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in The Hague ruled - in an advisory opinion - that the Chagos Islands should be handed over to Mauritius in order to complete its "decolonisation."

The United Nations General Assembly then voted to give Britain a six-month deadline to begin that process.
Britain has steadfastly refused to complyy*.

Piggywaspushed · 27/12/2019 17:57

I couldn't dispose of a dead squirrel last week without screaming repeatedly and loudly. I definitely could not club a creature to death. I also have no evidence it was badly injured? I do understand his dilemma if it was entangled and enraged .

But the main issue is to Tweet in a gloating fashion about it which is stupid at best.

yolofish · 27/12/2019 18:00

we had a fox caught in our chicken (electric) fence once. I called the RSPCA, covered it with a towel and provided a bowl of water. It was a feisty fucker, nice man took it away and it was released somewhere else I assume. but it wasnt injured, just tangled, and I was fine with having the fence cut to release it. but think going on Twitter to shout about it is a really really stupid move.

ListeningQuietly · 27/12/2019 18:12

I like the comment in Private Eye asking how much Amber Rudd's brother was paid to disable the People's Vote campaign the day the GE was called

the history of these events will be fascinating to read in ten years time

DGRossetti · 27/12/2019 18:16

I think a shovel or spade would be a much quicker way to despatch a fox than a baseball bat.

Be curious to know what the protocols for disposing of the carcass would be, as I have no intention of wasting precious seconds trawling through the council website only to find that it's not covered.

One thing I recall from somewhere is you need to dig a lot deeper than you'd think to bury meat to stop scavengers digging it up again. Although it's interesting to wonder what would scavenge a dead fox. (That said, our house seems to be magpie central for the entire street ...).

Is there anywhere that would take the carcass for the pelt ? Is fox fur a thing anymore ? Mind you, if it's anything like the mangy specimens I've seen prowling our streets, you probably wouldn't want to wear it.

We only found out one of our neighbours keeps (or possibly kept Grin) chickens after a PCSO knocked on the door a few years back and said they'd all been "stolen" and had we heard any suspicious noises in the middle of the night ...

ME: "Stolen, you say ? Are they sure it wasn't a fox ?"
PCSO: "Would a fox eat a chicken ?"

I recounted the story to some country-dwelling friends who (after they'd finished lambasting city folk Grin) confirmed a fox can empty a hen house without a sound and leaving no feathers.

DB is popping up tomorrow (doing the rounds from the US). I bet he'll tell us about what gun he'd have chosen ....

DGRossetti · 27/12/2019 18:17

pedant note: is it "dispatch" or "despatch" ?

chatongris · 27/12/2019 19:00

Either spelling is OK in British English but only dispatch is correct in American English (translator hat on Wink).

prettybird · 27/12/2019 19:18

I saw a presumably dying fox with an advanced case of sarcoptic mange in the garden earlier this year. I only know because I looked up why a fox would have a hairless/white rear half, with a bare bone stick of a tail ShockSad

Xenia · 27/12/2019 19:33

We have some with manage - we have foxes in our garden about 30 times a day at least by the way.. Another one without mange has 3 legs only. Others are fine.

I see no reason why he cannot tweet about it as it's a lawful act. We don't all have to have the same views on things. It would be a sad day when people's freedom of speech is curtailed because Jenny gets upset seeing a farmer's webpage showing cows in the field or the farmer is distraught seeing someone eating vegan food or whatever.

I hope this Government can legislative to giev us much stronger rights of freedom of speech and indeed a right to offend people. Je suis Charlie. Perhaps this could be a cause for the good law project or whatever this QC runs - to support those who post views others detest and then the person loses their job, like that poor lady who lost her job for calling a man a man or whatever it was and the many other instances we have had of people having views some group of people don't like. Now we have routed socialism so substantially in the election let us move towards a plural society where we have loads of different views and are all free to air those views even if others cannot believe anyone thinks that thing is right or not.

GeistohneGrenzen · 27/12/2019 19:38

DGR Be curious to know what the protocols for disposing of the carcass would be, as I have no intention of wasting precious seconds trawling through the council website only to find that it's not covered

Talking to someone from Bracknell a few years ago who had a problem with a dead fox in her garden. She phoned the local council who told her to just put it in the bin for next collection day...

howabout · 27/12/2019 19:41

Questionable whether clubbing a fox with a baseball bat is humane - guidance suggests not
Keeping a baseball bat primarily as a means of "protection" is also questionable.
A lawyer claiming "moral superiority" openly endorsing both of these also questionable.
He's a tax lawyer with a penchant for seeking to enforce the letter over the spirit - hoist by his own petard.

ListeningQuietly · 27/12/2019 19:52

Xenia
I reiterate - I have no problem with his actions
I do have a problem with him bragging about doing it hung over wearing his wife's kimono because that is narcissism and thus detracts from his work.

Those of us who post on here are practised at separating parts of our lives.
Maybe he should lurk and learn Grin Wink

Piggywaspushed · 27/12/2019 19:55

Did you see the Tweet xenia?