Brexit Arms - Out with the old and in with the new

[time4chocolate]

It’s time again for another Brexit Arms thread to see us into Christmas and beyond.

Well what a week it’s been!!

Boris has now completed his first week and he’s been busy. New conservatives have been sworn in, the Queens Speech yesterday shows promise (aware that the proof of the (Xmas) pudding is in the eating) and Boris’ Deal is going to be voted on today with the results being around 3pm I believe.

Meanwhile, on the other side all four wheels have definitely fallen off the red bus and were very nearly joined by a garden gate and a car door. Oh dear!!

Anyway, I have added a few more Christmas decs to the pub and popped the fairy back on the tree (it took a nasty tumble)

We are now good to go.
Cheers all 🍷🍷

Ps. If anyone wants to volunteer for outside catering that would be👍🏻

And they are still snoring, Autumn. I'm up and showered and dressed, ready to cook breakfast. Never mind.

Please stay off social media. People go mad behind the anonymity of a keyboard. Although if anyone is nasty enough and deluded enough to call you a coconut, would you like me to go round and see them?

Lily

How much did they drink? They might not be able face breakfast!
I doubt they’d say it to my face.

But there’s no anonymity. They are happy to have their views out there with their workplace info as well.

It’s such a shame that previously useful platforms liked LinkedIn have become so unprofessional.

I looked at the video autumn posted. I admit I hadn't heard of that Titania character- or the guy who created her. His video is standard alt right fare attacking 'The Woke' -sorry no, let's call the alt right by their actual name, the far right and stop playing along with their rebrand.
Freedom of speech and freedom in general are absolutely worth fighting for. Of course. People on the left however deeply distrust the right because they fear freedom and democracy being manipulated by the latter. At the start of the video, he acknowledges that censorship was traditionally a tool of the Right. Does a leopard change its spots? Can he not see how the Left is reluctant to let certain brands of thought prosper? I'm sure he can, hence the attack on the 'Establishment'.
The problem I have with such videos isn't the satire itself but the systematic attack on progressive values. Social justice should not be a dirty word but the derisive use of SJW suggests it is. Feminism shouldn't be a dirty word but again it is in such videos (and there are many with similar discourse out there)
There's a plethora of such influencers, many of them in the US (where this vocabulary originated) and they all advocate rolling back the state. Even if they profess respecting women and minorities the whole rhetoric is based on not protecting them (as that's a Left concept).
The issue I have as a woman is that equality is only possible if a proper state structure is in place to protect women, ie. Laws, judges to implement them, police to enforce them. Otherwise we're left with a traditional structure of women relying on the good will of their family/ DH. Some are good guys of course but one look at AIBU tells you how many are not. Women and minorities do need that state protection or it's a jungle out there.
I digressed a bit here but I needed to get this off my chest.

Songs the first time I heard the term SJW I was actually quite offended,

I think what’s happened is that well meaning people have gone a bit “no debate” and while I appreciate that might be useful occasionally, generally sunlight on an issue is better.

I usually hate political satire - often it’s just adding to division - but this one came to light, for me, because I’ve got some sort of derangement syndrome at the moment and am desperately seeking sanity.

Oh yay. Told off again.
Some things never change.

Alt right, far right, tory cunts, nazis etc...

Nope, just normal people sick and tired of being told, what to do, what to think, how ‘progressive’ we should all be, that women should give their rights up to men, what we should read, what we should find funny, what to post on social media etc...

Over. It.

Vive la Titania.

GhostofEpic that’s great 😀

I don’t consider myself told off. And if one lurker understand that Titania is a spoof now, or bothers to think about how many of us are political,y homeless, that’s a good thing.

I really want 2020 to see a bit of common sense returning to Labour.

ghost
I wasn't telling anyone off on here. Read my post.

And yes, alt right is just another name for far right.

“ghost
I wasn't telling anyone off on here. Read my post.”

I did read your post, I guess it’s interpretive depending on how you view the undertone. It rather sounded like you were attempting to shut down our enjoyment of Titania, by deciding it was a tool of the Alt Right. The subtext is, if you like this then you must share far right views and therefore be ashamed, which I think is a spurious dressing down and an argument lacking in Nuance.

I don’t think we can automatically label Titania as a satirical tool of the far right, off the back of one video and a few tweets sending up the SJW culture of twitter. The SJW types that Titania is sending up, are the cancel culture types, the language fascists, the statue bulldozers, the bookburners, the thought police. The type of people that aggravate most everyday folk, who are not extremists. That’s why people are drawn to the humour, it’s a refreshing change to the usual tropes we find all over twitter, and the genius of it, is that it is written in the exact style of the ‘offended’ SJW’s. I love the Irony, It speaks to me! And I refuse to feel bad about it. I have no idea of the political leanings of Andrew, he hasn’t expressed them to my knowledge, merely opined and satirised the extreme views of others. It’s no different to Spitting Image of old in that respect IMO.

I mean, just look at what happened in response to JK Rowling the other day... this is exactly the kind of behavior he is attempting to satirise, and I’m glad he is. No one should have to have people contacting their agent to have them cancelled, for expressing sympathy with having a view that is 100% grounded in reality and fact. It’s just ridiculous.

The problem I have with such videos isn't the satire itself but the systematic attack on progressive values

I suppose it depends on what people mean by progressive values. No-platforming feminist voices like Julie Bindel and Germaine Greer because they don't subscribe to the "acceptance without exception" mantra of Stonewall is not progressive, in my view. Piling opprobrium on JK Rowling for expressing a carefully considered non-discriminatory but ultimately mild defence of biological reality is not progressive. Having an open and honest debate about the practical implications of such a mantra - and doing so without being shut down or even threatened in a particularly vile and misogynistic way - is.

Titania McGrath takes the mick out of those who think that No Debate is not only a complete sentence but a comprehensive and effective rebuttal of what many would consider to be genuine concerns.

That's not alt right or right or centrist or left or far left. People right across the political spectrum enjoy watching Titania puncturing the empty rhetoric of the No Debate fans, as you will see from the FWR boards. There are posters on those boards who are diametrically opposite to me on the political spectrum but there are some issues that bring us together and make us united.

That is one of them.

Love Titania.

Do not agree with JK Rowling about her politics but love her books and love her tweet.

The subtext is, if you like this then you must share far right views and therefore be ashamed, which I think is a spurious dressing down and an argument lacking in Nuance.

If I'd wanted to say that then I would have. You put words in my mouth.
My post wasn't about the Titania character as such (and i dont know enough about it anyway) but a generic comment about alt right discourse and the use of the term SJW in particular. I stand by my opinion that "SJW" is usually part of an attack on progressive values, which I define broadly as the drive to achieve equality of rights between human beings.

To the poster referring to deplatforming of Germaine Greer- yep, it was BS and needed calling out as that. Any BS needs calling out and I intensely dislike extremes of any kind.

Morning all
I am still waiting for a definition of "progressive values" which is not closed and exclusive.

Morning howabout, I'd like to think mine isn't.

Now I want to know what "equality of rights" means?

Take right to freedom of expression and thought for example. Even if everyone has a right to express whatever view they like (they don't) do they then have the right to be heard and considered and publicised. Who has the right to be offended? When does offence cross over into incitement or hate crime?

What is the difference between "progressive" and "libertarian" freedom other than that one is a term of the "Left" and the other a label for the "Right"? (Claire Fox and Bredan O'Neill self term as libertarian Left but are often labelled as "actually" Right)

“ I have no idea of the political leanings of Andrew, he hasn’t expressed them to my knowledge, merely opined and satirised the extreme views of others”

He’s liberal and left leaning, and like me, v worried about
Labour eating itself.

I never comment on “progressive values” or “equality” because I have no idea what any poster might mean on any given day.

X post

I didn’t know that about Claire and Brendan, interesting.

I always always listen to Claire Fox. She speaks such sense on so many issues. She defines herself as communist.

Ditto, I always listen to Brendan O'Neill. He is most definitely not communist.

Like I said, this isn't about alt right, far left, wherever on the political spectrum.

No political philosophy has a monopoly on common sense.

Depends how you're defining communism Lily - a whole other can of worms.

Depends how you're defining communism Lily - a whole other can of worms.

True, Howabout, but that's how Claire Fox defines herself. I merely passed on her view of her political viewpoint.

As for me, I define myself as a classical liberal

His video is standard alt right fare attacking 'The Woke' -sorry no, let's call the alt right by their actual name, the far right and stop playing along with their rebrand.

Just to be sure that I understood this properly, I looked up the definition of alt right on Wikipedia. It says:

"The alt-right, an abbreviation of alternative right, is a loosely connected far-right, white nationalist movement that originated in the United States. A largely online phenomenon, the alt-right originated in the U.S. during the 2010s, although it has since established a presence in various other countries. The term is ill-defined, having been used in different ways by various self-described "alt-rightists", media commentators, and academics. Groups which have been identified as alt-right also espouse white supremacism, white separatism, severe immigration restrictions, and antisemitism."

Then I looked at the definition of Far Right, from the same source:

"Far-right politics are politics further on the right of the left-right spectrum than the standard political right, particularly in terms of extreme nationalism,[1][2] nativist ideologies, and authoritarian tendencies,[3] all sustained by an organicist vision of the world.[4]
Used to describe the historical experiences of fascism and Nazism,[5] it today includes neo-fascism, neo-Nazism, Third Position, the alt-right, white nationalism[6] and other ideologies or organizations that feature ultranationalist, chauvinist, xenophobic, racist, anti-communist, or reactionary views.[7] These can lead to oppression, violence, forced assimilation, ethnic cleansing, and even genocide against groups of people based on their supposed inferiority, or their perceived threat to the native ethnic group,[8][9] nation, state,[10] national religion, dominant culture or ultraconservative traditional social institutions.[11]"

Are you absolutely sure that the chap behind the Titania McGrath spoof is a white nationalist, anti-Semitic neo-Fascist or neo-Nazi, Somgsofexperience? That's a pretty extreme allegation to make, especially as there is absolutely nothing in either the video or the Twitter account to support that view in any way whatsoever.

Would you like time to reflect on that and perhaps clarify your earlier comments? Because I'm fairly sure you didn't mean that.

Alt right and far right are terms often casually dropped into comments these days but they are very specific in their meaning and should be used only if demonstrably accurate.

Wouldn't you agree?

Evening everyone 🍷

Titania McGrath an alt-right mouthpiece ? 😂😂😂

Only if the long line of satirists from Juvenal through Hogarth, Voltaire, Twain, Cook......blahdiblahdiblah..... were.

That’s quite a reach even by MN standards.

Totalitarians, on either wing, cannot abide satirists.

Here he is on Brexit and losing friends

Relatable

In other news, this Honours address list business....I normally favour cock up over conspiracy, but seriously?!

To be absolutely clear and reiterate what I said earlier: I don't know enough about him or his fictional character to definitely judge his politics but the terminology he uses has roots in the US alt right: woke & SJW in particular.
I never said satire should be censored, I never said those who find Titania funny are Nazis etc.
The last thing I am is an authoritarian or I wouldn't be engaging with this thread (I'd prefer an echo chamber, wouldn't I?). No. But I have been interested in the progress of the alt right/far right for a while and note that terminology which was only found on the chans a couple of years ago has been more widely used recently and I think in subtle ways it's meant to undermine and ridicule the notion of social justice as a whole.
To go back to the question of progressive v libertarian; they're not necessarily contradictory but I think on a practical level that you can't enforce laws promoting equal rights (between men and women or anti discrimination against minorities ) without a state structure. My understanding of libertarianism is that it opposes state involvement as much as possible. Therefore, I wouldn't call myself a libertarian because i think it would lead to a world in which I would be likely to be less free.
Note I am not seeking to dictate anything to anyone and I hope to continue to have a fair discussion here.