Is No Deal Brexit going to happen anyway?

[CurlyWurlyTwirly]

So Boris has got his blue scarves minions in place.
He’s going to pass a law this week to stop Brexit being delayed beyond 31st January 2020 and the transition period no longer than 31st December 2020

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-no-deal-boris-johnson-leave-eu-remain-nhs-a9249341.html

So given how little Bojo cares for details. We may well crash out with no deal, as the current government won’t bother negotiating any with the EU.

(The turkeys voted for Christmas. Now here comes the stuffing).

random9876
Sorry again obviously not clear.
There hasn't been a box to tick to be frank.

I am not advocating massive taxes etc. either but the morally bankrupt practices that have and will continue to go on.
Look at Bedroom tax as an example who in there right minds can think that it is OK to take money off some of the more vulnerable in society because they are in a 2 bedroom instead of 1, but cant move because of money, availability etc. I can accept there is a debate, but not when you turn around and use that same "savings" to help people buy affordable housing at £600,000. Increasing VAT, etc. There are many examples.

In 1980 with 10 Million less people we had 3 times the amount of hospital beds.
When money is to be raised invariably it has been raised from those that can't afford it.

All Boris the idiot wanted to do was give £70,000 + earners a tax break and house buyers on stamp duty.
We have record inequality,
homelessness,
poverty,
failing health service,
schools,
roads etc. (except London of course)
None was helped by Phony Tony.
Thats why people stopped voting and why Referendum had a big turnout.
All the politicians want is power so all they are concerned about is today so bribe bribe bribe.

Look at Swinson defending her stance using her children, not a mention or a jot of concern for the thousands of children she put into poverty with their policies.
This was not about policies, it was about Brexit for the most part.
Labour gave the voters 2 choices Remain or Remain with a piece of paper that said we were out. A bit like Peace in Our Time with Chamberlain. Thats why the result happened and a bit Corbyn.

Going back to Phony Tony policies you may aswell tick the blue or yellow box, because there will be no difference.

OK FUSOI - so now we have Boris the Idiot in power. What do you (or we) do? I for one don't believe his 'promises' about more money for the NHS.

It is all just so depressingly self-destructive, because this will worsen things so much - and its frustrating, because I suppose that it just so happens that most of the people I know DO want a fairer society, which they at least try to vote for, volunteer for and work for, and clearly their vote is useless and (as Londoners), they still appear to be total bastards to swathes of the electorate.

I found Corbyn a pretty uninspiring character, but it's very sad that people were unable to reflect that his manifesto had so much more to offer them, and that Brexit might not be, in reality, a side issue for their lives. I'm not convinced that New Labour were quite as bad as the Tories, I'm more where Peregrina is, but I take your point about the many inequalities that mounted during the period.

Peregrina

Boris teh idiot will do whatever he wants until just before the next election, that is if his dick doesn't see him booted out before then.

random9876
You are right but it doesn't change the facts as far as a vast majority of people see it.
Immigration has meant less jobs lower wages, with services housing etc.struggling. Add to that benefits going abroad etc. Phony Tony saying he didn't realise is bollocks he knew exactly what he was doing.

All about cheap labour, its strange if our economy is so good why it is so reliant on subsidised labour through benefits.

All concerns went on deaf ears, the irony being that Cameron never thought the labour heartlands would vote the way they did.

Lets be clear the leavers on the right wanted out for vastly different reasons that those left behind. imho.
The doom and gloom soothsayers have and do not recognise that those people can't see it being worse than it is now. People still don't appreciate there are still towns that have and never will recover from Thatcher The Tax Dodger.

2 things helped cement Corbyns perception

1. The ISIS woman (Begum?) saying she needed support, vast majority just thought WTF.
2. Saying that immigrants already here should be able to have all their families in aswell.

In context with above it took nothing for people to swallow the rest of the bile. I wasn't getting at Londoners more about the politicians falling over themselves to get London Swing Seats so policies / manifesto's were aimed at that. It didn't matter about the North because they would do what they always do a vote anybody that they were told to. After Phony Tony confirmed that by doing nothing but looking after his mates. The referendum results was same old same old, it doesn't matter because they will just vote us. They didn't believe when push came to shove we would vote that way, so were ignored again. Politicians have forgotten for a very long time that they are supposed to do what was voted, not waht they want. For the last 2 years in particular lots have stuck they fingers up at the voters and basically said you vote doesn't matter I am doing what I want. Well a lot of those are where they desrve to be. Including the idiot who took over Phony Tonys seat who spent 3 years telling his voters to do one and then blames Corbyn for his defeat. The Stats say its a big thing, but if you are not from some of those areas its very hard to understand how big a thing it really is and how far they have had to push people to do it, it is way beyond what the media, Labour Luvvies or Laughing Tories think it is. There is a chance and I hope its only a very slim one that we will only end up with 1 party with different badges.

Boris teh idiot will do whatever he wants until just before the next election, that is if his dick doesn't see him booted out before then.

You are right but it doesn't change the facts as far as a vast majority of people see it. Immigration has meant less jobs lower wages, with services housing etc.struggling.

It's often not what people think is so, but what they believe to be so.
When the blond willy waver gets his Brexit, and it's 'done', then what will he do? The only way he can hope to recruit more nurses in the short term i.e. the next 2-3 years is by more immigration. A lot of people are going to be disappointed when they see the types of immigrant change.

It might be that with boundary changes that he will hope to consolidate his vote in the south east more, and regain a lot of London seats. Then those northern new Tory seats can go hang again - he won't care.

Why do you want think that nurses can't be trained, we need to do this encourage this , to value nurses for the amazing job they do.
I think Boris can see this, but it doesn't fit into the picture Labour wanted to project, I mean in the Queen's speech Boris has already added that the NHS gets more money, and no other govenment can stop it.

Good nurses don’t want to work in the UK - better pay and conditions in Canada, South Africa, Australia and the EU.

I agree with you Mummy, Why would the Tories not do as they say they are and get more nurses?
And as you say the Tories doing anything for the good of everyone all over the county no matter where they come from doesn't suit the Labour narrative.
This 'Elitist' narrative didn't work for JC this time round and it won't work moving forward.

Boris has already been found out to have lied about the number of nurses. He has lied and lied, why would that change?

Anyway it takes a minimum of 3 years to train as a nurse, this will therefore take time to filter through. And being honest NHS pay isn't great (I am a HCP so same pay scales) low enough to put me in the 'everyone hates' category of claiming tax credits and therefore expecting everyone else to pay for my children. So not really that appealing.

Why do you want think that nurses can't be trained,

Which is not what I said - I said within the next 2-3 years. You do realise that the basic nursing course is three years. So even if the training places were available now, and people started applying for September it will be summer 2023 before they qualify for their first post.

Cross post with Cactus - unless mummmy thinks that nursing is a 6 month course which just requires bedmaking type skills.

Furthermore, in one of those new Tory seats, DH's cousin had ambitions to be a nurse, but needed another GCSE. She studied and got that, to find that the course had now been scrapped. Like many women of middle years she wasn't just in a position to up sticks to find a course. So someone with potentially 20 years of nursing years ahead of them was lost to the system. If they opened up that course again, I suspect she would feel she was now to old to train.

Doubletrouble99
"""This 'Elitist' narrative didn't work for JC this time round and it won't work moving forward."""
Thats nearly as bad as watching them trying to defend the Corrupt Tyrant Trump.

The Status Quo is serving this country very well.
Debt off the scale and only set to grow.
Interest rates low, and stuck because of debt
Productivity through the floor
Record Poverty, food banks etc.
Homelessness
Inequality
Inadquate housing
Record Rents
Record Waste on Housing Benefit Wasted on Private landlords
£30 Billion on propping up housing market

back to edwardian / victorian times and worse.

Your OK so it doesn't matter. Thats fine no biggie. You will only care when it effects you nothing else.

The way you go on is no difference to Trump and the rest saying Climate Change is just a Chinese Plot. While banking the money and laughing.

The universities can't just instantly grow 14,000 more nursing places (on degree programmes) next year. Unis don't have the staff, they aren't going to hire a 500 more lecturers & 200 admin staff to make it happen. They needed to be advertising the course places 6 months ago to make the course places available in autumn 2020. Unis won't be able to find a 500 lecturers to make it happen. They can't make the space in the lecture theatres & work placements won't magic up quickly, either.

Almost no extra nurses will be trained before the next election. Just not possible in that timescale. They will be recruited from abroad.

Yes my friend who is a consultant in a London hospital says they've managed to get some over the last three years from India and the Philippines but it's not enough. My friend is the kindest person ever, but she says reluctantly that the ones they can get are nowhere near as good as the EU ones. To be frank in most cases their knowledge, training and English is nowhere near as good.

Thought this article was interesting as it says exactly what my friend says (and I've never read the Japan times before).

Japan Times on UK nursing.

think that it’s ridiculous that the tories are still lying about 50k MORE nurses, here’s yet another ridiculous interview. Does anyone actually fall for this?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cyrxyjj23wet/matthew-hancock

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-tories-new-nurses-promise-50000-31000-a9237676.html

In this interview he got caught out!

I think the point about this is increasing nursing numbers, not necessarily only relying on new entrants.
I want to see how the government intend increasing the nurse retention figures and encourage others to return to the profession. I sincerely hope they intend increasing nurse pay, replacing the nurse bursary and opening up more training centres and increasing classes in current ones.
In the mean time we do need to recruit from other parts of the world as we always have however I really hope that we will have far more home grown nurses.

Doubletrouble - absolutely no one would mind if the Tories did all those things. It's just that that sort of Conservatism died a death in 1979.

Since then it's all been public sector bad, private sector good, until the private sector fails, and yet again the taxpayer bails them out.

Peregrina - what has that got to do with getting more nurses?
I as a died in the wool Conservative do not recognise that narrative at all. All you are doing is trotting out the usual rubbish that the left have done for years. Doesn't it any more true now than it was years ago.
Just more and more silly sweeping statements

What has it got to do with getting more nurses - they are public sector workers and the current Tory party has a horror of letting the public sector provide anything.

As for whether they are silly and sweeping statements, we will have to see how many new nurses materialise and what is done to retain the current ones.

I think anyone considering the issues of involving more private services in the NHS needs to look at what happened at Hinchingbrooke Hospital.

It was a disaster and the private company walked away just three years into a 10 year contract leaving the taxpayer to pick up the bill for the mess which ensued.

Too much privatisation has happened in the NHS and there have been some well publicised issues as a result of this.

Nurses need to be able to nurse not chase up issues caused by the fact that the housekeeping services are not doing what they should be. Been there and done that. It’s why I left nursing in the end...too much time being taken away from patients.

And no...I have no desire to go back unless I hear things have markedly improved. Given the history of both the Tory and Labour Govts over the past 20 years I am not hopeful. Plus the predicted financial implications of Brexit don’t leave much confidence that the Govt will be able to invest in the way they are promising,

I will sit back and watch but won’t be surprised if we end up with a fully privatised service within the next 30 years. There may be some positives in that but the negatives will be significant for everyone except the very rich.

Thanks DuckWillow for providing a concrete example.

I would be surprised if we don't get more Hinchingbrooke style failures - with the promise of more money legislated for, without saying how it will be spent, it just gives carte - blanche to come in, spend money, make a mess, walk away.

We desperately need a proper debate about the future of both health and Social care, and there is zero sign that this will happen under the present Government. If we think back to the founding of the NHS it didn't come from thin air, it was underpinned by the Beveridge Report.

My understanding is the target # nurses can't be recruited from abroad; such efforts have failed badly to meet the recruitment targets in recent years. Unless salaries are hugely increased, won't happen.

So all round, won't happen.