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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Undecideds

987 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/12/2019 19:55

Apparently the pollsters are nervous.

There are far more undecided than there have been at this stage in recent general election.

This makes it a hugely fine line between a hung parliament and a massive tory majority.

The weather on Thursday isn't expected to be nice and this could affect turnout. The blue corner are particularly nervous about this, but don't forget those postal votes.

Whatever happens on Thursday at least this election campaign is nearly over. And that can't be a bad thing.

And Christmas is in a fortnight so we can all drown our sorrows or celebrate in style.

You always have time to restock the drinks if you end up resort to them on Thursday

(New election special thread on Thursday rather than bunging up Westminstenders BTW)

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RedToothBrush · 10/12/2019 13:57

You make some good points above, but wrapped up in a tirade doesn't help. You don't know what other people are doing with their time. You don't know how much they are commuting weekly, or what other commitments they have. You might well find that someone doesn't feel they would be useful as a Councillor but is out each weekend as a Street pastor, or helping in the Local foodbank, or a local soup kitchen or driving people to hospital appointments.

It's a tirade because there's been criticism of those who don't feel they can keep up that level of commitment anymore. Whilst simultaneously saying they have too much on themselves and they aren't prepared to do the job.

You can't have it both ways IMHO.

Either have empathy for those who've had enough or have the wherewithal to stand up and do it yourself.

That's the thing. Something has to give somewhere. Whether it be other commitments to the community or to family. And somehow people who've done their bit for public office are being demonised for 'giving up'.

How on earth does that work?

If you are critical of others not willing to continue standing, then I do think you have to be prepared to step up to the plate yourself.

What I find is its the busy people who always volunteer for everything and the load of community service isn't evenly distributed. There is a core of around 100 adults in my local community of 10,000 adults who do everything. It's taken enormously for granted.

If you genuinely are stretched with other things, I sort of find that type of criticism more gauling in a way, because you know first hand the sacrifices you make to do those things for others but somehow dismiss it as being different for elected posts where the moral obligation somehow doesn't have a finite point where people are free to say, 'I've done my shift, it's someone else's watch now'.

Collective responsibility is recognising the strain of the job.

It's taboo to have a go at doctors for the same type of thing (when it's their paid job) but not for part time or full time elected officials.

The lack of respect for those doing the job comes screaming out, in more than one way. It can be flat out violence or verbal abuse but it's also the digs about being quitters or 'giving up on their country' too.

I do get angry about it, because all there is is complaints against those who do public service in good faith rather than if the same energy was spent trying to come up with practical solutions to these type of issues. There isn't political will to make change.

We really do have the country we deserve for this reason.

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Peregrina · 10/12/2019 13:59

I volunteer for various things and have done for many years. There are things you know you are not suited to, so don't volunteer for, and things you can do, or could do and used to do well, but know that you are now jaded and need to stop.

Sometimes you have to say to people that if they don't volunteer for [this activity] it will stop. Sometimes [this activity] has outgrown its utility and needs to stop. Sometimes it's a nice idea that actually isn't satisfying a need.

Sometimes you need to ask, 'is there a better way of doing this?' Now we might be at that stage in political activities, although we lack the people with vision to ask the questions.

Torchlightt · 10/12/2019 14:08

.

Piggywaspushed · 10/12/2019 14:11

This is genuinely quite interesting!

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/stories-50691075/how-angry-are-you

RedToothBrush · 10/12/2019 14:13

I'm not angry.

I'm past angry.

Well into the frustrated and despairing phase.

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Peregrina · 10/12/2019 14:22

I do think you are addressing your ire to the wrong audience, Red. I would like to say that you are the one who threw down the gauntlet of

I take it all those chastising are putting in applications to stand for election at the next available opportunity...

No one was chastising but we have told you - we are mostly not the people who say that "we are too busy, let the other person do it."

I am active in my church - we have about 60 people who are extremely active - some have been Councillors but have now stood down as their age and health has taken a told. Countless others are doing all the jobs I mention. Some quite honestly wouldn't make good councillors, but are good at visiting people or doing the lifts to hospitals.

I would say also that a number of people are doing their work quietly, without apparently anyone noticing, but usually perceptive people do notice.

RedToothBrush · 10/12/2019 14:31

Frequently made comments are the real life realities

why isn't my parliamentary candidate replying to my emails. X party don't care

Unless they are the sitting MP they probably have a full time job to go to and they have hundreds of emails, some more barmy than others and they have no way of knowing if the sender is sending an email in good faith or will go bonkers if they get a reply they don't like.

why haven't I had any canvassers? No one ever knocks on my door

There are a lot of doors in a constituency. Candidates have jobs and might commute. It's not very sociable to start knocking on doors at 8pm once you've got home and had your dinner. You aren't allowed to canvass alone for your own safety. Organising groups to go canvassing can be difficult especially in areas with low numbers of active party members

my candidate isn't local. This is unacceptable

None marginal: Chances are no one local wanted to stand.
Marginal: The party parachuted in a dutiful suck up cos its easier for the leader to ignore local issues that way.

we aren't getting people with vision to stand

People with vision are outsiders who don't suck up, so either get dumped with the unwinnable seats or aren't selected as candidates as they aren't big enough suck ups because they have minds and thoughts of their own and are prepared to challenge the status quo ideas.

People who stand to be politicians do so for self interest and don't really care about the people

See above about winnable and unwinnable seats.

And so on and so forth.

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stripeypillowcase · 10/12/2019 14:32

interestingly I listened to a german program this morning about mountaineers about risk taking and one point was the effect helicopter parenting has on resilience and measured risk taking in adults.

(Planet Wissen 10.12.219 - Lust am Extremen)

Peregrina · 10/12/2019 14:46

I'm not angry.

But we should all be - and we should harness the energy in that anger.
At the moment, that energy is being wasted on groups fighting against each other. Which suits the Boris Johnson's and Rees-Mogg's of this world.

thecatfromjapan · 10/12/2019 14:55

Things are, indeed, very broken.

Living and participating shouldn't be this awful, awful test of endurance.

ListeningQuietly · 10/12/2019 14:59

More people would stand for election if the Standards board was brought back to weed out the bullies and the racists and the sexists at an earlier stage.

Sadly the after effect of Eric Pickle's double masterstroke
(abolishing the Audit Commission and the Standards board in 2010)
was to reduce accountability and enforcement of basic standards of
Conduct in Public Life (the Nolan Principles)

so more and more reasonable people are walking away
at all levels - from Parishes to Whitehall

Songsofexperience · 10/12/2019 15:00

The lack of respect for those doing the job comes screaming out, in more than one way. It can be flat out violence or verbal abuse but it's also the digs about being quitters or 'giving up on their country' too.

honestly, I was not having a go at people like your DH. I may not fully understand the world of politics but I thought that the one nation Tories leaving the floor to the extremes in the party were missing an opportunity to rein in the ERG. That's who and what I meant when i said 'giving up on their country'. Mind you, if you read it again, it was a question and not a judgement because I was simply wondering where the moderates have gone.

Local councillors and anyone who's been out canvassing and serving the community but has felt drained and needed a break has my respect!!

Perhaps I'm tired and therefore clumsy in my writing (genuinely, physically tired like most of us) so rather than walking on egg shells I'll leave these threads for a bit.

EchoElephant · 10/12/2019 15:07

Long time lurker here, very grateful for these threads.
A (not very close) fbook friend posted this today. And has lots of supportive comments. I've seen many similar posts from friends that I thought would be Labour supporters.
I don't have the political knowledge to comment. But to me it sums up the uphill battle that JC has.

"I'm still a bit undecided about my vote direction this coming Thursday.
I've obviously taken into consideration what I consider to be the following swaying points on the two main parties.

On the one hand the Conservative Boris Johnson is a bit of a rascal with the ladies and can sometimes bend the truth a bit, he’s also a bit posh.

And on the other hand..
Labours Jeremy Corbyn Invited two IRA members to parliament two weeks after the Brighton bombing.
Attended Bloody Sunday commemoration with bomber Brendan McKenna. Attended meeting with Provisional IRA member Raymond McCartney.
Hosted IRA linked Mitchell McLaughlin in parliament. Spoke alongside IRA terrorist Martina Anderson.
Attended Sinn Fein dinner with IRA bomber Gerry Kelly. Chaired Irish republican event with IRA bomber Brendan MacFarlane.
Attended Bobby Sands commemoration honouring IRA terrorists.
Stood in minute’s silence for IRA gunmen shot dead by the SAS.
Refused to condemn the IRA in Sky News interview. Refused to condemn the IRA on Question Time.
Refused to condemn IRA violence in BBC radio interview. Signed EDM after IRA Poppy massacre massacre blaming Britain for the deaths.
Arrested while protesting in support of Brighton bomber’s co-defendants.
Lobbied government to improve visiting conditions for IRA killers.
Attended Irish republican event calling for armed conflict against Britain.
Hired suspected IRA man Ronan Bennett as a parliamentary assistant. Hired another aide closely linked to several convicted IRA terrorists.
Heavily involved with IRA sympathising newspaper London Labour Briefing. Put up £20,000 bail money for IRA terror suspect Roisin McAliskey.
Didn’t support IRA ceasefire. Said Hamas and Hezbollah are his “friends“. Called for Hamas to be removed from terror banned list.
Called Hamas “serious and hard-working“.
Attended wreath-laying at grave of Munich massacre terrorist. Attended conference with Hamas and PFLP. Photographed smiling with Hezbollah flag. Attended rally with Hezbollah and Al-Muhajiroun.
Repeatedly shared platforms with PFLP plane hijacker.
Hired aide who praised Hamas’ “spirit of resistance“.
Accepted £20,000 for state TV channel of terror-sponsoring Iranian regime. Opposed banning Britons from travelling to Syria to fight for ISIS. Defended rights of fighters returning from Syria.
Said ISIS supporters should not be prosecuted. Compared fighters returning from Syria to Nelson Mandela. Said the death of Osama Bin Laden was a “tragedy“. Wouldn’t sanction drone strike to kill ISIS leader.
Voted to allow ISIS fighters to return from Syria. Opposed shoot to kill. Attended event organised by terrorist sympathising IHRC. Signed letter defending Lockerbie bombing suspects. Wrote letter in support of conman accused of fundraising for ISIS.
Spoke of “friendship” with Mo Kozbar, who called for destruction of Israel. Attended event with Abdullah Djaballah, who called for holy war against UK. Called drone strikes against terrorists “obscene”.
Boasted about “opposing anti-terror legislation”. Said laws banning jihadis from returning to Britain are “strange”.
Accepted £5,000 donation from terror supporter Ted Honderich.
Accepted £2,800 trip to Gaza from banned Islamist organisation Interpal. Called Ibrahim Hewitt, extremist and chair of Interpal, a “very good friend”. Accepted two more trips from the pro-Hamas group PRC.
Speaker at conference hosted by pro-Hamas group MEMO. Met Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh several times. Hosted meeting with Mousa Abu Maria of banned group Islamic Jihad. Patron of Palestine Solidarity Campaign – marches attended by Hezbollah. Compared Israel to ISIS, Hamas, Hezbollah and al-Qaeda.
Said we should not make “value judgements” about Britons who fight for ISIS. Received endorsement from Hamas. Attended event with Islamic extremist Suliman Gani. Chaired Stop the War, who praised “internationalism and solidarity” of ISIS. Praised Raed Salah, who was jailed for inciting violence in Israel.
Signed letter defending jihadist advocacy group Cage. Met Dyab Jahjah, who praised the killing of British soldiers. Shared platform with representative of extremist cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.
Compared ISIS to US military in interview on Russia Today. Opposed proscription of Hizb ut-Tahrir.
Attended conference which called on Iraqis to kill British soldiers.
Attended Al-Quds Day demonstration in support of destruction of Israel. Supported Hamas and ISIS-linked Viva Palestina group.
Attended protest with Islamic extremist Moazzam Begg. Made the “case for Iran” at event hosted by Khomeinist group. Photographed smiling with Azzam Tamimi, who backed suicide bombings.
Photographed with Abdel Atwan, who sympathised with attacks on US troops. Said Hamas should “have tea with the Queen”. Attended ‘Meet the Resistance’ event with Hezbollah MP Hussein El Haj.
Attended event with Haifa Zangana, who praised Palestinian “mujahideen”. Defended the infamous anti-Semitic Hamas supporter Stephen Sizer. Attended event with pro-Hamas and Hezbollah group Naturei Karta. Backed Holocaust denying anti-Zionist extremist Paul Eisen.
Photographed with Abdul Raoof Al Shayeb, later jailed for terror offences. Mocked “anti-terror hysteria” while opposing powers for security services. Named on speakers list for conference with Hamas sympathiser Ismail Patel. Criticised drone strike that killed Jihadi John. Said the 7/7 bombers had been denied “hope and opportunity”.
Said 9/11 was “manipulated” to make it look like bin Laden was responsible. Failed to unequivocally condemn the 9/11 attacks.
Called Columbian terror group M-19 “comrades”.
Blamed beheading of Alan Henning on Britain. Gave speech in support of Gaddafi regime. Signed EDM spinning for Slobodan Milosevic. Blamed Tunisia terror attack on “austerity”. Voted against banning support for the IRA.
Voted against the Prevention of Terrorism Act three times during the Troubles. Voted against emergency counter-terror laws after 9/11.
Voted against stricter punishments for being a member of a terror group. Voted against criminalising the encouragement of terrorism.
Voted against banning al-Qaeda. Voted against outlawing the glorification of terror. Voted against control orders. Voted against increased funding for the security services to combat terrorism."

thecatfromjapan · 10/12/2019 15:07

Don't leave, @SongsofExperience.

I think through talking, we've come - and are coming to - a far deeper understanding.

And your voice is part of that.

I know I, for one, have given thought to those active in the political process.

And it has paused me - in a good way - and given me a moment to reflect on the contributions and motivations of those in other Parties.

I can tell you that it's going to help me be less tribal - & dig down to the deeper values.

And you are a part of that.

It's useful. For me, anyway.

That is why talking and real communication is incredibly valuable.

EchoElephant · 10/12/2019 15:08

Apologies for the length of that post.
But I think it shows the sheer volume of accusations that are thrown at JC

thecatfromjapan · 10/12/2019 15:12

Hello, Echo.

That would be hilarious Boris Johnson who laughed about getting a journalist beaten up, may have committed fraud in public office as Mayor, prorogued Parliament, may well be compromises by a foreign power, was a known security risks whilst Foreign Secretary, is in hoc to the ERG, and is standing in a manifesto which includes page 48, which promises to drive a horse and cart through our constitution?

Oh, and 2 former Prime Ministers say you shouldn't vote for?

He's not that jovial.

Yes. It's an uphill struggle.

Your friends are, I think, going to get a shock.

EchoElephant · 10/12/2019 15:15

thecatfromjapan I don't think they are going to be my friends for much longer after posting that!

CendrillonSings · 10/12/2019 15:15

Apologies for the length of that post. But I think it shows the sheer volume of accusations that are thrown at JC

Maybe he shouldn’t have done all that shit if he doesn’t want it thrown back in his face? Just a thought.

ThatSeventiesLass · 10/12/2019 15:17

I fail to see the problem with attending a Bloody Sunday commemoration?

thecatfromjapan · 10/12/2019 15:18

Lots of those 'mays' are only 'mays' because investigations are pending.
And we haven't even started on the Russian interference dossier or the lying.

🤦‍♀️ Oh, it's so grim.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 10/12/2019 15:18

Scroll on by 🎶🎵🎵🎶

BigChocFrenzy · 10/12/2019 15:21

The long list of lies published by BJ while a journalist would exceed the MN post limit
He did manage to get sacked twice for lying

Looks beholden to mysterious Russian money
Was a security risk as Foriagn Sec ... and as PM ??

He wants to gerrymander the political system to counter longterm demographics that favour Labour^

  • that kind of dictatorial control usually only works so long, until there is a very bloody revolution

and of course....

A really, really long list of awful things Boris Johnson has said about women, LGBT+ people and people of colour

https://www.indy100.com/article/boris-johnson-offensive-comments-women-gay-people-minorities-lgbt-9215711

mybrainhurtsalot · 10/12/2019 15:21

m.youtube.com/watch?v=hRjP1eyMfBs

Tactical voting song

EchoElephant · 10/12/2019 15:22

I'm not going to argue whether Jeremy Corbyn should or shouldn't have done all those things. I don't know enough to do that.

But the point is that Boris Johnson is just seen as a bit of a rascal and a bit posh.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/12/2019 15:24

When both Tory and Labour former PMs - John Major and Tony Blair - recommend voting tactically to keep out the Tories,
that shows how dangerous BJ & his gang are to the country

Neither of them can stand Corbyn, so them saying people should vote to keep out BJ shows how dangerous he is

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