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Brexit

Westminstenders: Frozen

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/11/2019 15:45

Boris Johnson was empty chaired by C4 with a block of ice.

The Conservatives went mental and have threatened to look at C4 broadcast remit.

This is illiberal and anti democratic.

Journalists are supposed to hold power to account on behalf of the public. If MPs don't turn up then they can't be held to account.

They have a duty to show. It's not good enough to avoid scrutiny because it might make you look bad. That's the whole point.

The contempt with which Johnson holds the press and public is reprehensible and you should be concerned whatever your political alligence. It allows corruption to fester without consequence.

And to then threaten C4 because they do their job in line with their responsibility as a broadcaster is alarming.

This is how authoritarian dictators work.

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tobee · 29/11/2019 21:02

Fail posting due to my reply box not working again Shock

This thread is more than a little bit antagonistic

I could be wrong, but I think that's because we have a lot of visitors from Brexit Arms (and other ploppers) and it's not reciprocated to the same extent.

UltimateFoole · 29/11/2019 21:03

Excellent post at 19.17 Red

As much as its tempting to indulge in conspiracy theories, we must keep our eyes of the concept of the truth and how important it is. We must question what 'our own side' is saying as much as the opposition.

Greykitten · 29/11/2019 21:03

Because of Brexit, our sector is looking for reliable, verified UK suppliers/manufacturers rather than buying the cheapest Italian/Romanian/Indian

Genuinely at a loss to understand why imports from India would be impacted by Brexit, and why it makes sense to replace these with products from the US.

prettybird · 29/11/2019 21:04

I've worked (and been successful) in both the public sector and private sector over the years (mostly as a higher rate tax payer): ICI, NHS (management Shock), KPMG (management consultancy), Further Education (as a marketing manager for a college of FE) and strategic marketing/selling for a telecoms company.

I worked equally hard and conscientiously in both sectors. Smile

Dh's background is similar - a successful mix of public and private sector.

Just now we are setting up our own micro business which means that, for the moment, we have to supplement our income from savings (which we are fortunate enough to have). Not taking a penny in benefits (which our savings preclude us from anyway Wink)

I'm not going to suggest that (most) Remainers don't understand the profit motive, because they do - nor that (some) Leavers don't empathise with society's victims (indeed some of them are themselves victims).

Many Remainers' particular concern is the damage Brexit (and BJ's deal) is going to do to the economy (and that profitability that drives the resources for the public sector that most of us we value: the NHS and education for starters) Sad If BJ was so confident that it was going to have a positive impact he would have released the impact reports. Not just expected us to "trust him" Hmm

BigChocFrenzy · 29/11/2019 21:06

"you see and empathize with society's victims and ours lie with people who aim to get by respectably, but who are not themselves rapacious capitalists. "

I support both
A Good Samaritan has to be kind, but also has to have enough in his wallet

re business:

I can understand why BJ - who as Foreign Secretary said "Fuck business" - doesn't care that Brexit will hammer UK trade,
but I can't understand why a microbusiness who has to import or export wants to reject frictionless trade and add a lot of red tape

Larger manufacturers that rely on JIT, e.g. car manufacturers will have significant extra costs

Also a low pound hurts some more than it helps, since the Uk imports so much
e.g. - even before Brexit - Two microbusinesses I used went under about 6 months after the ref,
because lower Sterling made their dollar imports too expensive to be able to sell their finished product at a profit.

Greykitten · 29/11/2019 21:08

A bill to ban abortion introduced in the Ohio state legislature requires doctors to “reimplant an ectopic pregnancy” into a woman’s uterus – a procedure that does not exist in medical science – or face charges of “abortion murder”.

In other news, there is at least one developed country that is more batshit than Brexit Britain.

I expect we'll be importing some of this in due course though.

frumpety · 29/11/2019 21:08

XingMing and you don't think that's a bit shit ? That these are the best paid jobs in your corner of the UK ? Can a newly qualified teacher or nurse afford to buy their own home in your corner of the UK ? easily without help from parents ? If they can please PM me and I will seriously consider moving Smile

Stinkyeddie · 29/11/2019 21:12

grey
Under his eye

Piggywaspushed · 29/11/2019 21:22

xing may well be in a deprived coastal area. It is that shit. So no teachers want to work there. The tories starved this area of funding (to be fair, so did New Labour) and the schools are awful.

I can't see things getting better there out of the EU .

BigChocFrenzy · 29/11/2019 21:22

Both organised terrorists and wingnuts crave publicity,

so they are more likely to attack when there is already a media circus,
when people are already anxious and watching the news more,
such as in a GE, on Brexit Day, or when HMQ dies etc

This GE, I've been half-expecting an attack and / or another Russian poisoning
Not conspiracy theory, just having lived through 50 years of terrorism of one kind or another

pointythings · 29/11/2019 21:24

Deprived coastal areas are indeed shit and in need of support to develop the local economy. Guess which organisation was actually doing some of that before some of us thought it would be a good idea to vote to leave said organisation? Hmm

BigChocFrenzy · 29/11/2019 21:28

Odd that Brexit Party donors have still been so generous, after Farage pulled them out of the 317 Tory 2017 seats
They are nearly up to Tory and Labour levels - and are likely to get 0 or 1 MPs

Dmitry Grozoubinski@DmitryOpines

That feeling when you snail-mail a cheque and can't get through to the bank to cancel it.

Westminstenders: Frozen
XingMing · 29/11/2019 21:32

There's no Utopia anywhere, so we need a government that allows success, and the present iteration of Labour which channels Venezuela is not it. If life is made difficult, we'll just retire, closing the business, and pay our tax elsewhere. As will a large percentage of people like us. We lived abroad before as economic migrants (in eight countries so far between DH, me, and my sister) and will do so again without compunction. Few relatives, no racist tendencies so no ties.

dreichthanksgiving · 29/11/2019 21:34

I grew up in a deprived costal community.
Guess what flag is above our new pier?
It has an EU flag because they funded the rebuilding.
We would have been completely cut off before Westminster would have given it a moments thought.

Greykitten · 29/11/2019 21:34

no racist tendencies so no ties.

This is extraordinary, for someone who is complaining about antagonism. People who have ties to their local area or their country have "racist tendencies?"

BigChocFrenzy · 29/11/2019 21:34

I moved abroad right after the ref, like many other scientists I knew

The science brain drain has been going on for 3 years now

dreichthanksgiving · 29/11/2019 21:37

We have also be abroad for coming up to three years.
We haven't made any permanent decisions but some family members have.
I wouldn't say that racist tendencies is what is keeping other family members in the UK.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/11/2019 21:40

Brits have been emigrating for centuries and certainly many have moved to the EU since FOM made it easier

They emigrate for a better job / lifestyle, or because they can't stand a govt that is too rightwing or too leftwing

Some big name Brexiters have moved abroad too, since the ref - leaving the plebs to experience the consequences

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/indepth/britss_abroad/html/

An estimated 5.5m British people live permanently abroad – almost one in 10 of the UK population.

Icantreachthepretzels · 29/11/2019 21:41

A bill to ban abortion introduced in the Ohio state legislature requires doctors to “reimplant an ectopic pregnancy” into a woman’s uterus – a procedure that does not exist in medical science – or face charges of “abortion murder”

That is beyond disgraceful - I don't have the words. The woman hating that has to go on in a mind to think up this level of intrusive surgery on a woman who has just had dangerous surgery and which will serve no purpose (beyond forcing her to then miscarry the baby? For which she may end up in jail... ) is frightening to even contemplate.

TheMShip · 29/11/2019 21:46

Utopia isn't needed. There are plenty of examples of countries that are both successful economically and have strong safety nets. Germany comes to mind immediately. The IFS comment on the Labour manifesto was that it was in line with European models. Why can't that work for the UK? Are we shitty workers? Are we less intelligent, lazier, or what?

BoreOfWhabylon · 29/11/2019 21:48

pmk

Arborea · 29/11/2019 21:52

Hi XingMing, thanks for contributing to the thread.

I've recently had some building work done on my house and have been overhearing a fair few conversations between the various trades about Brexit and politics. They've all been very pro-Brexit, even though things have been slow for them personally. Although they're salt of the earth types and I don't think they'd usually have much time for posh boys they like Johnson because they think that he's sticking up for "the people's" decision to leave the EU. They detest Corbyn as a 'parasite' - they've never discussed the LibDems or Greens in front of me.

I thought the 'parasite' comment was telling - despite the possibility that Brexit might cost them more in the long run than a couple of extra pence on their tax bills, from their perspective a Labour Government is a swindle because it'll want to take their money and give it to lazy spongers who are too idle to go out and earn a day's crust (or almost as bad, to pay all those cushy public sector salaries: apart from nurses and firemen of course, because everyone knows they're deserving!)

Now while I don't agree with them about a lot of this, it's been helpful to give me a perspective on why the message from the non Tory parties isn't resonating with lots of people, and to shed some light on what a fresh start for opposition parties might look like. I can't remember which poster recommended The Road to Somewhere by David Goodhart, but it's an excellent theory about the differences between the main tribes in contemporary Britain (NI culture is a bit too complex!) and more importantly reminds us that to move past the current stalemate we'll have to try and understand one another's perspectives better. The next political party to really grasp this, and articulate it could achieve a significant breakthrough. After all, regardless of what end of the political spectrum you come from, most people would agree that there is dignity in going out and earning a living, and that if you're doing that, and the economic system is working properly, then shouldn't you be able to afford a decent home, send your kids to decent schools, and expect them (and you) to have a stable and prosperous future?

I'm not an economist, but I do think our system is broken when it's not possible for large sections of society to be able to afford to live without direct or indirect social security benefits, and I struggle to see how it's good for the country as a whole to subsidise some very large corporations who pay crappy wages, and offer crappy working conditions.

I think the idea of the social contract is long overdue a resurgence: a philosophy that is about giving as well as taking is much richer than one which positions individuals as capitalists versus commies, and although it's easy to dismiss this kind of thinking as 'airy-fairy' I do think that it's important to try and reframe the nature of public debate about what (and who) our institutions are for so that we can make some progress instead of wearing the same old grooves out.

Uncomfortable though it can be, surely the starting point is to try and understand each other, and find the common ground? If one thing's for sure, the way politics is at the moment definitely doesn't seem to be working for many of us.

So thanks XingMIng for popping your head over the fence and saying hello - it would be good to have some more constructive debate from people who still want to leave the EU. One thing I'm really interested in is how many Leavers (like my builders) don't mind that it now seems likely that 'Project Fear' was right, and it will be difficult economically for the UK, with not much of an upside (and many, many years of trade deals etc dominating the news). How will things feel different, and better, when we're not EU members any more?

XingMing · 29/11/2019 21:53

BigChocFrenzy. No wish to hammer free trade and was a former enthusiast for a European free trade bloc. Not a supporter of an integrated union unless everyone paid the same taxes and followed the same rules on the same voting basis from Ireland to Iceland to Sicily, Slovakia and north to Latvia and Lithuania. Which was blown out of the water by the fudge on joining the Euro, when Greece, Italy etc were admitted on a platform implicitly underwritten by the DeutschMark, which then used its weight to bully Greece (always a poor country) into even worse poverty plus massive unemployment. The EU and the Euro will implode epically at some point, and for this reason too, I think we shall be better off at a distance.

Jason118 · 29/11/2019 21:57

House

WeshMaGueule · 29/11/2019 21:59

Chile has a right-wing government and it's going to shit right now. Not as much in the news as Venezuela, though.

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