Westminstenders: Frozen

[RedToothBrush]

Boris Johnson was empty chaired by C4 with a block of ice.

The Conservatives went mental and have threatened to look at C4 broadcast remit.

This is illiberal and anti democratic.

Journalists are supposed to hold power to account on behalf of the public. If MPs don't turn up then they can't be held to account.

They have a duty to show. It's not good enough to avoid scrutiny because it might make you look bad. That's the whole point.

The contempt with which Johnson holds the press and public is reprehensible and you should be concerned whatever your political alligence. It allows corruption to fester without consequence.

And to then threaten C4 because they do their job in line with their responsibility as a broadcaster is alarming.

This is how authoritarian dictators work.

An estimated 5.5m British people live permanently abroad – almost one in 10 of the UK population.

I am one of them. We went abroad for an adventure to the EU and then Australia. When we go back to the UK it is amazing - in a bad way. Here in Australia we earn twice as much as in the UK. We have had steady salary increases every year. Services are good. Compare that to the decline that we have seen in the UK since we left. It is like another country to the one we left 7 years ago. It does seem to be boiled frog syndrome.

Because of Brexit, we will have to pick the UK or DH's EU country to return to. I have a public sector job, which is losing people continually due to the horrific stress, and DH works in an easily exploitable industry. So, it is a no-brainer - the UK is no longer an option. Also, I don't trust the UK in regard to the treatment of EU nationals in the future (Windrush in mind).

This article in the guardian on a focus group's attitudes towards Johnson and Corbyn sums it up and makes me absolutely despair: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/29/politicians-liars-boris-johnson-voters-prime-minister-brexit

@Arborea, thanks. I agree with most of your views, and read the David Goodhart article earlier this evening with interest and nods.

That's what makes this not just a GE, but perhaps one of the defining points of European political and economic history.

And @Piggy, this is Cornwall where our education system gets about 60p in the £ of what's spent in London. Little wonder the results aren't improving as fast as in Tower Hamlets.

It's a pity the whole of this wasn't quoted:

Because of Brexit, our sector is looking for reliable, verified UK suppliers/manufacturers rather than buying the cheapest Italian/Romanian/Indian substitute products -- but we are uncertain about the terms of trade and supply post-Brexit with our top quality suppliers in the Netherlands and Germany. So we shall look to the USA.

Because of Brexit you lose your top quality suppliers who are near neighbours geographically, but will instead look to someone at least 3,000 miles away, who may or may not have the products you need - I don't know. I have a suspicion that if they were competitive you would have traded with them anyway.

There's no Utopia anywhere, so we need a government that allows success, and the present iteration of Labour which channels Venezuela is not it.

Labour isn't in Government, and hasn't been for a decade, so they cannot have been channelling Venezuela. The Tories are in Government with a PM who thinks Fuck Business. I don't see that as success myself.

Putting on my optimistic hat here, if there is a Labour led govt in a hung parliament followed by a soft Brexit Vs Remain referendum, how to vote? My heart says Remain, as I truly believe we'd be better off within, but my head is saying take the soft Brexit.

Arborea's thoughtful post brought this to the forefront of my mind tonight. I have felt since the ref result that a soft Brexit would be the most acceptable outcome to the most people, and even now after 3.5 long years of increasing entrenchment, I think many would still be ok with that. The EU would I think prefer us at arms length but without the Singapore on Thames threat. It would mean that we'd be rule takers like Norway, it's true, but it would be a position of least harm from which to explore other options.

Tongue in cheek, it doesn't hurt that there's a potentially fantastic acronym for the UK/EU association that would be needed, sort of like a sister to the EEA. I propose BEER = British-European Economic Region. Along the lines of Boaty McBoatface, which was a rather fabulous example of British pisstake culture.

I think if I hear Venezuela again I’ll scream. The amount of melodrama and hyperbole around fiscal policies the IFS describes as modest by European standards, with both France and Germany spending more, is nauseating. It also says the cost of a no deal Brexit will dwarf Labour’s plans.

From being ambivalent about voting Labour a few weeks ago, I now see it as the only way to go. Thanks, at least in part, to the hysteria of Tory voters on MN.

The EU and the Euro will implode epically at some point, and for this reason too, I think we shall be better off at a distance.

Maybe they will, maybe not. We could have been at more of a distance - there was talk of an inner ring and an outer ring. The outer ring would probably have suited the UK best. Cameron wouldn't wear it because he wanted to be 'at the top table'.

But a distance and totally on our own, or effectively in hock to the USA.?

That is beyond disgraceful - I don't have the words. The woman hating that has to go on in a mind to think up this level of intrusive surgery on a woman who has just had dangerous surgery and which will serve no purpose (beyond forcing her to then miscarry the baby? For which she may end up in jail... ) is frightening to even contemplate.

Pretzels I too can't contemplate it and that's because our minds don't work that way...our minds aren't horrifically twisted.

Johnson is so frightening....I think that man is capable of all kinds of evil because he believes his own sick hype.

I don’t think a hung Parl with a Labour government is at all likely so it’s a moot point.

Given the choice Remain is a no brainer. You wouldn’t be doing Leavers any favours as many don’t consider soft Brexit as ‘actually Leaving’.

I believe that the right option would be a soft Remain, with a BEER (love it) so that the liberal democracies of Europe could collaborate and trade smoothly, share and exchange young people, technology, science and intelligence. I would (gently) disagree with euro-justice (because I think argument in open court is preferable, more transparent usw) plus in commercial terms Anglo-US law is faster and more decisive.

FFS people, we could be getting somewhere at last!

if there is a Labour led govt in a hung parliament followed by a soft Brexit Vs Remain referendum, how to vote?

For me, I would still vote Remain, but could live with a soft Brexit. Norway plus would suit me well enough.

@Peregrina, we already trade with the US because they make some items not manufactured as standard in the EU, but we actively prefer to buy most stuff in the EU because it's quicker on delivery.

The woman hating that has to go on in a mind to think up this level of intrusive surgery on a woman who has just had dangerous surgery...

This angers me - no woman gets pregnant without male involvement. The males who think this sort of crap up ought to learn to keep their trousers zipped. But it won't be their mistresses or daughters who are made to suffer - only poor women.

Hi again XingMing

I see my post crossed with your earlier one which discussed your views on how adopting the Euro did a disservice to poorer countries like Greece so I'm guessing that's one of the reasons why you think we're better off out of it. I don't really feel qualified to comment on the wisdom of the Euro project, although I can see the wisdom of what you said about trying to align countries with very different cultures and voting systems etc. Is it really necessary to have things all the same though? I have to admit that I thought one of the strengths of the UK's position in the EU was the extent to which past governments had negotiated opt outs. From that angle, I'd come to the view that we had the best of both worlds, and that as we're not as fully committed as countries in the Eurozone, then it would be a bit 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater' to leave just to avoid the possibility that the Euro might crash.

I also have to admit that purely for consumerist reasons, I quite like the Euro - I like the sense of price transparency you get when you can weigh up the relative cost of things when we're away, and as we travel a bit to several Eurozone countries I've appreciated not feeling ripped off when having to convert currencies back and forth!

P.S. TheMShip, that BEER acronym is fabulous!

but we actively prefer to buy most stuff in the EU because it's quicker on delivery. But because of Brexit.... Well, if that is what you voted for then own the consequences.

"The EU and the Euro will implode epically at some point"

The UK looks more likely to break up

As for the EU imploding:
if Brexiters think that likely within the next couple of decacdes, why bother with Brexit, since it will take about that long to negotiate trade deals with the EU and all the countries with whom we currently have deals only as EU members

With such a narrow Leave win, why not at least reduce the damage and go for a Norway-type deal

• which Farage & co were talking up during the ref campaign but dropped immediately afterwards

Peregrina

For me, I would still vote Remain, but could live with a soft Brexit. Norway plus would suit me well enough.

This is where my heart says to go, but I don't know if it's the best thing for the good of the country. I know there's a hard core of leavers, as Tatiana points out, who wouldn't think it was true Brexit, but I believe there are many like Xing who would be ok with it. The hard core leavers wouldn't be satisfied with anything but the hardest of terms, and I'm not willing to bend so far and to screw over the other 70-75% of the country.

I hope, Xing, that you've had a generally informative and polite experience here this evening. There are a few leavers who hang out here, I'm thinking of LouiseCollins in particular, who contribute interesting opinions and experience to the conversation, and the threads certainly aren't a closed shop. It can get heated, especially lately, but most people are good at keeping it away from personal attacks.

I'm off to bed. Doctor's orders to take care of self!

The guy on London Bridge today was wearing a tag.

The Guardian reporting that a mocked up version of Jeremy Corbyn's twitter account, featuring a tweet in which he appears to sympathise with the London Bridge terrorist today (rather than the victims) has been doing the rounds

Germany didn't "bully" Greece, unless bullying means refusing to keep subsidising them for not paying taxes

I was living in Germany at the time and there was great public indignation at what was described - by the right - as Germans funding Greeks to retire at 55 while Germans retire at 67.

Not entirely a fair representation of the facts, but it was what many people believed, so democracy required German leaders to get tough - or they would have been booted out by the German public.

That's an example why noone need fear that a United States of Europe for many decades to come, if ever:
not until there is more enthusiasm for bankrolling other countries, rather than just the limited investment that has so boosted the economy in regions like E Europe

More here.

twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1200533264684990465?s=20

I've seen the fake Corbyn tweet. Stupid people are retweeting it. 😠

Thank you all, I have had a good evening here, and you have all restored my faith that there may be a decent compromise to be wrested from all the invective we spiel at one another in the end. Nothing personal is ever intended, even to posters at the other end of the spectrum. I hope I have not given offence to anyone, and have taken none. As I never mean to disrespect anyone. A toast to a better world, that works for us all . I do hope some policy wonks have been reading.

I think there has been quite a large majority on here for some time who would settle for a Norway model (though actually it would have to be "Norway plus" because of the Irish border).

The idea that we are "getting somewhere" when many or most of us have been there for about two years is very odd.

"we are uncertain about the terms of trade and supply post-Brexit with our top quality suppliers in the Netherlands and Germany. So we shall look to the USA."

Until there is a US trade deal, you won't have any more certainty about the terms with the US.

Barnier has suggested that the UK & EU could possibly do a bare bones zero tariff trade deal (Canada minus minus) v quickly - within or shortly after transition -
and it could come into operation provisionally, while waiting for the formal ratification by the 38 national and regional Parliaments
So just the 27 heads of govt and the EP would need to initially approve this

However, with the Presidential elections coming up, it is likely to take longer for the US to negotiate a deal and have it pass Congress

Also, the USA, like other countries, would probably first want to see the terms of the UK-EU deal before agreeing their own trade deal with us.