Westminstenders: Frozen

[RedToothBrush]

Boris Johnson was empty chaired by C4 with a block of ice.

The Conservatives went mental and have threatened to look at C4 broadcast remit.

This is illiberal and anti democratic.

Journalists are supposed to hold power to account on behalf of the public. If MPs don't turn up then they can't be held to account.

They have a duty to show. It's not good enough to avoid scrutiny because it might make you look bad. That's the whole point.

The contempt with which Johnson holds the press and public is reprehensible and you should be concerned whatever your political alligence. It allows corruption to fester without consequence.

And to then threaten C4 because they do their job in line with their responsibility as a broadcaster is alarming.

This is how authoritarian dictators work.

[tobee]

The thing it's easy to forget is that having a ge means all kinds of things get thrown up. It's not just the Brexit election as sky have it. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[XingMing]

It is not intended to imply any such thing Greykitten. But if you are a micro-business with seven on the payroll, each of them the primary earner for their family in the lowest paid area of the UK, then you tend to view the recipients of monthly public sector salary cheques paid at national rates as slightly feather-bedded (even nurses and HCAs around here) and not as hyper-sensitive to the month's exact trading figures and profit margins. I am not saying things are that tight at the moment, but they were in the 1990s, and again in 2009, and DH (who started the business) was the person who went unpaid for 18 months. We stayed afloat because I earned decently for a freelance writer, but yes, I completely get the importance of a safety net -- although it would not have helped us much because we were not eligible for benefits, not having been employed in the first place.

So forgive me if I am hesitant about a high-tax, high-spend government. We earn almost enough to pay 40% income tax, and we are over 60, so also old enough to remember that nationalised industries didn't make money and only provided customer service in fine weather. The first time I wanted a phone line installed, pre-privatisation British Telecom told me there was a two-year waiting list!

[Zxyzoey31]

I don't know if it was mentioned but the Tories banned the Daily Mirror from their battle bus this week. The first time ever.

[mrslaughan]

@XingMing - and how is your business doing now?
Because of brexit my business is in the toilet and we are battering down the hatches for a rough ride.
Just in the last 2 weeks I have spoken to a number of people who are running small businesses (actually one moderate size one)- and they have all started talking about the strain they are under - the slow slide of revenue that has speed up since June.

[Greykitten]

But if you are a micro-business

I'm not really sure what your point is. I've been a freelancer in the past and am currently a micro business owner. I still want both me and other people to have decent healthcare and an effective safety net, and I'm quite happy to pay taxes to enable that.

This has literally zero to do with the type of work you do, and everything to do with your moral and political outlook.

[mrslaughan]

Catching the end of the debate on BBC - god have to love NS and the man from Plaid (sorry I don't know his name) - wish I was in Wales it Scotland!!!

[pointythings]

XingMing I remember the 1990s. I also remember who was in power for most of them.

As for post-2009 - does a certain global economic crash ring any bells?

I've been broke and on the bones of my arse, believe me. The difference is that I have never voted to make other people even worse off than me.

A band 2 HCA earns barely above NMW, for a job that actually comes with a great deal of responsibility in terms of patient welfare. Featherbedded? You're dreaming.

[Piggywaspushed]

Ah, I get it now. We are being outed as the dreaded Public Sector Workers.

Guilty as charged m'lud

[HoneyandSpice]

Hi all. Weary placemark from me and thanks Red. It's all so bloody depressing it's beyond belief! I've had a little light relief in so much as I've just returned from seeing Frozen 2 with DD. Was nice to have a couple of hours in fantasy land briefly.
Have we heard from Squid lately? Hope they are ok. Hugs to all. A truly awful day what with the news and all.

Also, I agree Bellini. Madness. And slow boiled frog also resonates.

[tobee]

. Now it appears there's been a stabbing attack in The Hague at a department store.

[Greykitten]

We are being outed as the dreaded Public Sector Workers.

I don't know how you can live with yourselves, you public-service providing, 12-hour shift working scrounges.

[pointythings]

Same, Piggy. I share an office with the people running patient flow in my area. This is the worst November for 10 years. Hospitals are at winter crisis levels and it's November. Just wait till the flu season hits - people will die.

But by then the Tories will be nicely in power, chipping away at the NHS to make things even worse. Don't come the 'cushy public sector worker' with me, XingMing - you wouldn't last 5 minutes where I work.

[tobee]

Squid was around not too long ago... 👀

[Piggywaspushed]

I'm worse grey. I'm a teacher. One step removed from Satan.

[Torchlightt]

.

[MaudBaileysGreenTurban]

Xing I genuinely hope you're still smelling and looking fabulous but I can't tell you how disappointed I am to read your posts on this thread. Feather-bedded nurses and HCAs? As someone who works in both the NHS and in education (and would not be in that position without the 'high spend' and safety net provided by a Labour govt), I can't believe you're serious

[XingMing]

Because of Brexit, our sector is looking for reliable, verified UK suppliers/manufacturers rather than buying the cheapest Italian/Romanian/Indian substitute products -- but we are uncertain about the terms of trade and supply post-Brexit with our top quality suppliers in the Netherlands and Germany. So we shall look to the USA.

And, no, you are not being outed as public service workers and government apparatchiks, unless you so define yourselves. And we pay taxes too.

I am humbled by the bravery shown by the police, paramedics and fire fighters who raced into central London, astonished by the sangfroid and resilience of those present.

And please don't (try to) patronise me. It is quite possible for a private company to be providing essential public services without the employees getting a government paycheck directly. We simplify things and keep our costs low, instead of hiring managers to discuss policies, but we follow all the health and safety codes meticulously, including those for nuclear power. In 30 years of trading, our employee turnover has been in single figures, usually zero.

This thread is more than a bit antagonistic.

[ContinuityError]

PMK with cat pretending to be a banana (that’s our fruit bowl she’s plonked herself in).

[RedToothBrush]

But if you are a micro-business with seven on the payroll, each of them the primary earner for their family in the lowest paid area of the UK, then you tend to view the recipients of monthly public sector salary cheques paid at national rates as slightly feather-bedded

Public sector salaries include everyone from an NHS consultant to a part time care assistant. Or a council chief executive to a part time cleaner.

Those same salaries which seem good in one area might be really poor in another with high property prices. To the point that public sector professionals such as teachers are struggling to make ends meet in some areas.

Are you therefore advocating that people who work in the public sector in less affluent areas should be paid less to reflect the cost of living and relative salaries within the area in the private sector?

I'm just struggling to get the logic of your argument which seems to suggest there should be a race to the bottom and the public sector should always earn less than the private sector in an area because the private sector isn't a drain on the tax payer.

It sounds like you advocate low taxation and low state involvement. Does that include privatisation of health and education as a matter of interest?

Or do you think that your grandchildrens education and therefore future employment opportunities should be done on a shoe string?

Ironically in less affluent areas there are more social issues: so more complex needs in things like education and health. So a teacher working in such an area might have a considerably more challenging workload than one in an affluent area. And it might be more difficult to attract good quality staff to these areas if the pay wasnt as good and they could choose to work in a nicer area instead because they had the best skill sets and therefore ability to pick and choose where they wished to work.

If anything surely the best wages in the public sector should be going to places with the most problems?

Just trying to grasp your strain of thought...

[frumpety]

How is a nurse working for the NHS featherbedded XingMing ?

[Stinkyeddie]

🎶🎵🎶🎵

[tobee]

I be wrong but I think you mightrgis thread is more than a bit antagonistic


I could be wrong, but I think that's because we have a lot of visitors from Brexit Arms (and other ploppers) and it's not reciprocated to the same extent.

[XingMing]

My sympathies are all over the place on this argument. I am a trained teacher. But I live in a corner of the UK where the wages are lower than anywhere else. I would not post that NHS workers and teachers are among the best paid people locally if it were not true. The reality is that most of the jobs available are scooping ice creams in the summer months, care work, labouring, or a few hours during the school day stacking shelves. A job, any job, is something people cling to. Can you not hoist in that without assuming I am mates with JRM?

[Greykitten]

This thread is more than a bit antagonistic

It's antagonistic to people who suggest that public sector health workers have feather bedded employment conditions.

Is it possible for you to admit that your comments were misplaced?

[RedToothBrush]

Because of Brexit, our sector is looking for reliable, verified UK suppliers/manufacturers rather than buying the cheapest Italian/Romanian/Indian substitute products

See I think companies should have been supporting local businesses as a rule anyway because there are numerous benefits to doing so. But immediate profit and bottom lines is the only thing motivating a change of behaviour.

Why didn't you do this before the referendum if you thought it was the best way of doing business?

Somewhere in there, there was a conscious decision to not look to UK companies until forced to by circumstances of Brexit.