Westminstenders: From Uxbridge to...? Part deux GE 2019 special.

[placemats]

New thread.

General election 12th December 2019. Results out on Friday 13th. Unlucky day for some.

So this election is unusual in that it will focus primarily on Brexit and referendums with domestic issues tagged alongside, for some parties.

@hopefulhalf - see @mathanxiety

I still think extrapolating Corbyn to Stalin and Johnson to Hitler is reductio ad absurdum...

@mathanxiety, I agree.
It is quite astonishing to me to see that, in the U.K., the right is so well ‘established’ that anything that is actually on the left is seen as being communist.
Blair wasn’t, Imo, on the left. But more centre (probably more centre right than centre left too).
And the demonisation of ‘communism’ whilst saying that socialism and communism is the same is another interesting trend.

I dint particularly like JC. But he has, for me two good sides. He actually believes in what he says and lives his principles. And he is on the left which I think this country desperately needs to counterbalance the 10 years of Tory, dismantling any state support but increasing the poor (whilst ensuring the richest are getting richer still).

But surely nowhere near the 30% that people are estimating is needed.

I’m not so sure.... Most people want their votes to count and in close constituency races, the parties involved ensure this is well known to everyone who’s got the slightest interest. Take Oxford for instance... the people of West Oxford aren’t inherently massive more LibDem than their counterparts in East Oxford.... Rather relatively small demographic differences and good party organisation have led to a snowball effect that funnels like-minded voters either to Labour or LibDem depending on where they live. This is why the LDs are so keen on getting that momentum going by showing polls that emphasise their chances in certain areas.

I don't actually care whether people vote Lib Dem, Labour, Green or SNP as long as they vote wisely if they are in a seat that is remotely marginal.

Maybe we could all think about not being destructive about other remain/remain hopeful parties and leaders? We have to work together.
I haven't aired my views on Corbyn for precisely this reason.

I cannot away with JRM -- he's a horrible little man. But I also think he is being condemned for something that he didn't actually say

Isn't that usually the case, the media jump on something, twist it, take it out of context etc.

Maggie Thatcher never actually said there's no such thing as a society, for example.

I'd hate to be a politician, I'd be forever dropping myself in it!

I don't actually care whether people vote Lib Dem, Labour, Green or SNP as long as they vote wisely if they are in a seat that is remotely marginal

Yes.

And vote to oust the DUP in NI, too.

What a disgrace.
Jacob Rees Mogg,for example, loves the 'profit motive' so viscerally that he would literally dehumanise all those who suffer pointlessly for them profit motive' as kindling for those who end up with the profit.
It's obscene.

Yes absolutely. Some people are more human than others.its not even just about money - it's about a deep belief that some are more equal than others.

This point will already have been made I'm sure -but it's what millions of faithful aspirational one nation Tories just don't seem to get. They think the nice Tory party helps those who try to help themselves a bit, with less tax etc.

The agenda now has gone beyond that. It is extreme selfish individualism, survival of the very fittest at its zenith. Sacrificing others is an inevitable (unfortunate) necessity- it's like US libertarianism.

Whilst individual control and choice sound great - the natural consequence is that it's ok for millions to fall through the net.

Rees Mogg's initial comments on Grenfell show the ugly truth. In his heart he believes that some people are more deserving of survival because Darwinianism means others , like him, would have made a ' fitter' choice. Yes he apologised -but you can see deep down he believes in a system that sacrifices the weaker.

When people like Rees Mogg bang on about the attractions of deregulation, getting rid of red tape etc it's about extreme individualism. It's so the 'fittest' individuals do what they like without any care for the common good. Minimal welfare state, no state pension, health care only for those who can pay, and minimal free education.

Minimal regulation of business- (like the Koch brothers lobbying for deregulation in the US) means if people die from the consequences e.g. effluent of reduced regulation in factories so be it.

JRM is a member of the Catholic Church, the most “othering” organisation I have encountered. If you can believe that anyone who rejects your own belief deserves to burn in Hell for all eternity, you can easily believe that the undeserving are pretty much subhuman.

BJ is copying his hero Churchill's disgraceful ravings^ in the 1945 GE campaign^
Churchill claimed Labour would need some form of Gestapo to keep control when they enforced socialism.

The 1945 Labour govt established the Welfare State, NHS etc^

• Churchill's Consrvatives regarded those policies as an existential threat to their party, their privileges and their class The Tories later had to accept the 1945 policies to get elected, but some always wanted to turn back the clock and such views have grown again in the Tory party

https://spartacus-educational.com/GE1945.htm

On 4th June, 1945, Winston Churchill made a radio broadcast where he attacked Clement Attleee^ and the Labour Partyy^:

"I must tell you that a socialist policy is abhorrent to British ideas on freedom.^^

There is to be one State, to which all are to be obedient in every act of their lives.
This State, once in power, will prescribe for everyone: where they are to work, what they are to work at, where they may go and what they may say, what views they are to hold,
where their wives are to queue up for the State ration, and what education their children are to receive.

A socialist state could not afford to suffer opposition - no socialist system can be established without a political police.
They (the Labour government) would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo."
.....
Attlee's response the following day caused Churchill serious damage:

"The Prime Minister made much play last night with the rights of the individual and the dangers of people being ordered about by officials.

I entirely agree that people should have the greatest freedom compatible with the freedom of others.
There was a time when employers were free to work little children for sixteen hours a day.
I remember when employers were free to employ sweated women workers on finishing trousers at a penny halfpenny a pair.

There was a time when people were free to neglect sanitation so that thousands died of preventable diseases.

For years every attempt to remedy these crying evils was blocked by the same plea of freedom for the individual.
It was in fact freedom for the rich and slavery for the poor.

Make no mistake, it has only been through the power of the State, given to it by Parliament, that the general public has been protected against the greed of ruthless profit-makers and property owners.
The Conservative Party remains as always a class Party.

Just to say Rees Mogg is being condemned for something he absolutely did say.

He said to Nick Ferrari :

And I think if either of us were in a fire, whatever the fire brigade said, we would leave the burning building. It just seems the common sense thing to do.
"And it is such a tragedy that that didn't happen."

This does reveal his mindset -that it's natural that some individuals , like him, are more equal than others. Despite his faith, that doesn't suggest going into politics to help the vulnerable does it?

This belief in survival of the very fittest is also revealed by his voting record - votes against disability benefits but for reducing tax for those earning over £150k etc.

He thinks his innate superiority as a human means he would have known better than the fire brigade. Someone who knows more comments here. https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/grenfell-tower-fire-one-year-one-kensington-a8397276.html

Agree, OhYouBadKitten.

"It just seems the common sense thing to do."

Only in a building with sub-standard fire protection, which was due to putting profit before people's safety,
not listening to the residents association who had warned repeatedly of the dangers, but were ignored

Of course firefighters are working plebs, so he might always consider his opinions superior to theirs

Saying that going against fire brigade advice is "just common sense" inherently implies that those who didn't flee - and died - did not have "common sense"

Just popping in to say that we'd really appreciate everyone being given a chance to have their say, even if their views aren't the same as yours.

The issues are only going to become more intense as we head for an election, so it would be a shame if some posters feel pushed out of the debate.

DWP is slapped down over 'misleading' adverts telling everyone Universal Credit is great

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/dwp-slapped-down-over-misleading-17205841?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

Craig Murray
@CraigMurrayOrg
· 20h
Asked this morning why she could never support a Corbyn government, Jo Swinson's first and instant response was that he would not be prepared to order submarine commanders to fire nuclear missiles.
Her constituents might want to think very hard about that before they vote.

Is she running the 2017 Tory campaign? She'll come out with Strong and Stable next

Ummmm - not sure why MNHQ felt the need to pop in as this thread has been entirely respectful - albeit with disagreements - to other posters to date

Anyway, going back to Smug. I find even his apology appalling - imho, it manages to insinuate that those that didn't understand what he "really" meant were stupid and shouldn't have been upset, so it's still their fault

Thinking about the JRM thing more - a lot of the press etc has focussed on the 'common sense' part of what he said.

I think the more revealing part is the collective othering of the residents - the comment to Nick Ferrari was that " if either of us were in a fire, whatever the fire brigade said, we would..."

imho, it manages to insinuate that those that didn't understand what he "really" meant were stupid and shouldn't have been upset, so it's still their fault

Its not a hard leap to think that if you're are injured at work surely its not the lack of safety equipment or your boss that is at fault and why should the state pay for your healthcare after such an injury because you know you were being stupid and the state shouldnt give you any support now that youre disabled because it was your own stupid fault

I thought that too Pretty

I'm really not sure why MNHQ felt the need to pop in as this thread has always been entirely respectful. Were they needing to pop in to defend JRM as he's standing for election and voters may be influenced?

I suppose the political party teams monitor and write to MN with complaints all the time?

A bit weird- dubiously funded huge organised propaganda over FB is completely fine. Genuine one off individuals on MN = not so fine?