GE is on! Remainers how will you vote?

[WarwickLife]

Just that really! The General Election is on, either 11th Dec or a few days before but it's going to happen now that Labour have agreed. Tactical voting websites are being prepared as we speak.

If you are a remainer, who will you vote for?

(And if any leavers lurk here, will you vote for Tories or Brexit party?)

I've said this before and I'll say it again - asking the people now to choose between a negotiated deal and remain is not anti democratic. It's the same electorate being asked a different question. Why is this so difficult for people to understand?

But that’s my point.... the last GE wasn’t invalidated simply because fraud occurred, as the fraud clearly didn’t get impact onto the overall result!

I think this is a bit of a sterile debate at this point, but factually

• in some cases there are mechanisms to rerun elections where the result has been obtained fraudulently
• no such mechanism existed for the 2016 referendum because it was advisory.

The Leave supporters have equally stated that Remain made erroneous claims, most notably that we’d suffer an economic crash and need an emergency budget to deal with fall out of we voted Leave.

It’s hard to take someone seriously who equates the lies of Leave with Remain’s claims. As one law professor described the Leave campaign as “lies on an industrial scale”. I’ve never seen comparable dishonesty In U.K. politics in 50 years.

and doesn’t grasp that the economic forecasts were sed on actually Leaving. The actual forecast was economic shock not crash. Carney took immediate action to soften the impact of the referendum, but it’s not as if Sterling has ever recovered.

The emergency budget would likely have happened as threatened if Osborne hadn’t been fired.

based not sed^^

Oakenbeach As for Leaver not providing you, a Remainer, with arguments you believe to be convincing in the period since the referendum, how can that possibly be a good enough reason not to respect the referendum result if we do live in a democracy?
Of course it's a good reason not to respect the result. We are not ruled by plebiscite. We are not required to blindly follow votes when they are not for the good of the country. The result was bought with outrageous lies. OK - if people are gullible enough to believe them, maybe we should 'respect' that what with every vote having equal value. However, when it is demonstrated time and time again that there's no way of leaving without damaging the country then no, I will not respect the result. Now we've seen Operation Yellowhammer and a whole load of negative impact assessments (have their been any positive ones?), then of course we don't have to 'respect' this nonsense. Are we going to risk peace in NI because people believed falsehoods? IMO you have a very odd view of democracy if you think it entails dragging the whole country into an unknown abyss because people were sufficiently convinced by lies to vote in a particular way on one day three years ago. Fuck that.

As one law professor described the Leave campaign as “lies on an industrial scale".I’ve never seen comparable dishonesty In U.K. politics in 50 years.

I've just found the law professor's twitter account - he is prone to hyperbole!

"Obedient little Farage eating his fill of Master Trump's ripest dingleberries: how can anyone claim to be so "patriotic" while being so pathetically supine?"

I wonder if he voted remain?

"Heading off soon for Liverpool4EU 's get-together at the Pen Factory. No Brexit Horror Show today: let's Count our lucky stars..."

"Best we can hope for= to stop Johnson in his tracks.That job done, we turn our attention to killing off Brexit altogether.But we're not likely to get both on 12 Dec 2019. Patience and determination (as Michel Barnier would say)!"

A bit worried about his mental state;

"millions of people, just like me, bloody despising you forever.Happy endings? Oh grow up"

"has Putin been puttin' [boom boom] something in the water at Conservative Clubs across Britain?"

No hyperbole there. And have the sense to differentiate formal analysis from off the cuff twitter comments.

No hyperbole there

formal analysis
Ok, have it your way - just watched the professor on YouTube - he mentions the Remain campaign's; "use of dodgy statistics."

Twitter posts are just hot air.
The Electoral Commission report is much clearer
Leave broke UK laws.

It’s well acknowledged that Remain presented some claims that were hard to substantiate - the 4300 figure for example.

But it was nothing like the scale of lies and dishonesty, and it turns out downright corruption, on the Leave side. To claim otherwise is ignorant, deluded or... dishonest.

Voting for green is wasted vote, can’t trust labour these days, I will be dead in a ditch before voting to keep the far right in power.

My heart says Liberal Democrat’s, my head says tactical voting (labour)

Twitter posts are just hot air.

The reference to Remain's "dodgy statistics" was from the professor's lecture - featured on YouTube.

The Electoral Commission report is much clearer

Electoral Commission - Campaign spending at the EU referendum:

•Remain: £19,309,588 (+ £9m leaflet)
•Leave: £13,332,569 (including overspend)

But that’s my point.... the last GE wasn’t invalidated simply because fraud occurred, as the fraud clearly didn’t get impact onto the overall result!

You are struggling here. A poll in one constituency could be voided if an irregularity was proved, and had affected the result.

At what stage do you think the mandate for the referendum will have run its course? For GEs we accept five years as the maximum.

No-one has disputed the ‘dodgy statistics’ but that’s not even vaguely comparable to the horrifying extent of Leave lies, dishonesty and corruption that have damaged politics for a long time to come.

And part of that 'damage' is that we are now almost programmed to accept whatever is thrown at us because, well, politicians lie/are corrupt and we shouldn't expect any better from them. And if people believe the lies and vote accordingly, well, that's 'democracy'.

Have voted Lib Dem/labour in the past. Very safe Tory seat so my vote has never counted for anything in the past. However will prob vote for Dominic Grieve based solely on his Brexit position and the work he has done to promote remaining in the EU.

At heart I have always been a remainer, I did my due diligence before the referendum trying to understand both sides.

Tbh I looked also at the peeps who were promoting remain/leave and decided that those on the leave side really did not appeal... Gove, Johnson, Farage, the Wetherspoon guy, the DUP.. they didn’t pass the Sunday lunch test !

I banged a tenner in the direction of Dominic Grieve. I have never voted Tory but in my mind there is something badly wrong now with the party when they have no room for Grieve, Philip Hammond or Ken Clarke i.e. people who have the word Tory running through them as in a stick of rock.

I'm probably going to do the same Peregrina

I'd vote for Grieve too if I could. I don't agree with his politics but I agree with the way he does politics (honestly, and with moral courage). And I think he is a very good MP.

The thing that stops me feeling sorry for the Tory moderates is the fact that they joined the Tory party. It’s always been arseholes galore, even before the swivel-eyed loons.

No-one has disputed the ‘dodgy statistics’ but that’s not even vaguely comparable to the horrifying extent of Leave lies, dishonesty and corruption that have damaged politics for a long time to come.

Oh, I think the Remain camp have more than made up for it since the referendum - I can't see any difference between the '£350 million a week' 'lie' and 'the Tories plan to sell off our NHS' lie for example.

As for targeted ads on social media - it didn't work for the Lib Dems in 2015 - they lost 49 seats!

"May 2015 The Liberal Democrats have launched their biggest targeted digital campaign to date ahead of Thursday’s general election as the party looks to capitalise on the power of digital advertising to influence voters."

"The project, known internally as Manatee, will see more than two million targeted messages delivered to voters through Facebook and YouTube in the final hours of the general election campaign using technology developed exclusively by the Liberal Democrats."

"The platform matches electoral roll data to Facebook and YouTube profiles for voters across the country.The paired data is then used to deliver targeted Facebook posts and YouTube adverts."

"The project is fully integrated with the party's canvassing database meaning that voters are targeted with messages based on conversations with Lib Dem activists on the doorstep as well as demographic information."

www.thedrum.com/news/2015/05/05/lib-dems-hope-largest-ever-targeted-digital-campaign-will-win-voters-over

'the Tories plan to sell off our NHS' lie for example.

In what way is this a lie? There have already been trade talks with US representatives where the NHS has been discussed. Added to which, the NHS is currently being privatised by stealth.

As for what happened in 2015 - we have had an election since then, you know.

What you’re saying essentially is that you haven’t grasped the extent of Leave lies as you’re duped by them yourself.

I haven’t seen Remainers claim the NHS will be definitely sold off, they a merely warned about the consequences of a US trade deal.

The Health and Social Care Act 2012 put all NHS services out to tender. In 2017, 43% of the total value of contracts was to the private sector. Boris says the the NHS is not up for grabs in a US trade deal but the fact is US firms are already involved in the NHS, HCA for example. The way is absolutely paved for a shift to the US healthcare system if the Tories wanted to go that way.

Wrt pharma the US objectives for a U.K. trade deal, published in the last year, explicitly seeks “full market access for U.S. products.”

Added to which, the NHS is currently being privatised by stealth.

Absolutely. The Tories have been explicitly trying to privatise it since Thatcher, and each Tory government has made a further forward step that way.

'the Tories plan to sell off our NHS' lie for example.

It’s been sold off by stealth bit by bit since 2013. It’s why Trump’s so keen on Johnson.