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Brexit

GE is on! Remainers how will you vote?

806 replies

WarwickLife · 29/10/2019 11:10

Just that really! The General Election is on, either 11th Dec or a few days before but it's going to happen now that Labour have agreed. Tactical voting websites are being prepared as we speak.

If you are a remainer, who will you vote for?

(And if any leavers lurk here, will you vote for Tories or Brexit party?)

OP posts:
StaronAinthorpe · 30/10/2019 10:12

God yes to holding your nose. It's crap, but necessary, more important this time than normally.

Limitedsimba123 · 30/10/2019 10:14

I don’t get the I’m a remainer but want us to leave due to democracy point of view.

In my view the Brexit vote can be simplified to this:

Gov: Do you want option 1 or option 2?
Electorate: Option 2
Gov: Option 2 isn’t actually possible, do you want option 3 or option 4?
Electorate: we don’t like those options, can we have option 1?
Gov: No, you have already decided against option 1 so it would be undemocratic to let you have that option again.

The Brexit that was promised (option 2) was all of the upsides to membership but none of the downsides. This is clearly not possible, and to then go ahead, and force the electorate to have either option 3 ( bad deal) or option 4 (no deal) is what is actually undemocratic imo.

NoWordForFluffy · 30/10/2019 10:17

Well, normal for now! Bonkers, isn't it?!

Trewser · 30/10/2019 10:20

Anyone who says they aren't voting Labour because of Corbyn is using a pretty poor excuse to justify where their vote is going

No they aren't. When Labour get annihilated, because of Corbyn, they might get the message and come back with an electable leader, which would be very good for the health of this country as a whole. It's "because of Corbyn" that we have Boris. He's been appalling and I couldn't vote for a party who seriously thinks he's up to the job.

AllTheGoodUNsTaken · 30/10/2019 10:33

To be honest none of them are good options. It comes down to if you think Boris or Corbyn is more harmful to the country's long term future. I can put up with either for the short term. I have an opinion on which legacy would be worse in 20 years, so I will vote accordingly.

AllTheGoodUNsTaken · 30/10/2019 10:36

PS it probably wouldn't be either party, because I can afford to waste my vote in a safe seat. But if I had to make that hard choice, it would be Labour.

KissCurls · 30/10/2019 10:38

@Limitedsimba123 I completely agree! This constant refrain that the referendum vote is set in stone and it's anti democratic to vote again is mad! That's what democracy is! Also, the referendum was advisory. It's up to our elected representatives to listen to the public, yes, but ultimately to do what is in our best interest. That's why we have a government - the idea than an advisory referendum vote must be carried out or we don't live in a democracy makes no sense.

The question (yes or no) was ridiculous given how complex the situation is - complexities that were not made clear. Surely it's anti-democratic not to offer the public the right to change their minds on the situation now that they actually know what it means? Not to mention the fact that the original result was shored up by the illegal activities of the Leave campaign.

The referendum tested the temperature of public opinion and that certainly needs to be taken into account but our elected representatives are the ones that make that decision, assessing the facts and advising us on what is best for the county. Isn't that democracy? To push ahead no matter what just because a (very) slight majority voted a simple 'yes' makes no sense. But I guess it's certainly 'do or die': looks like we're probably going to do both.

HPFA · 30/10/2019 12:02

@Limitedsimba123

What no-one seems to have picked up so far is that Johnson himself in his messaging is admitting that no-one wants Brexit.

He's saying "Let's get Brexit done and move on to other things" In other words, we're all bored of Brexit, we don't want to hear about it any more, there are more important things to think about. So we leave the EU, go into transition where everything stays the same and concentrate on more important things.

But if all the Leave voters are going to be perfectly happy in transition then that implies they're PERFECTLY HAPPY in the EU.

So on the one hand Johnson says its terribly important that we Leave, but is giving out a message that says the vast majority of people don't actually want to do it!!!

The one encouraging thing about this for the future is that by convincing Leave voters that nice transition hassle-free Brexit is the "real deal" he's going to have a hell of a job convincing them that ERG Brexit is the Real Deal and not some nasty Tory stitch up job, ruining everyone's nice Brexit!

Hope that made sense somewhere.

WarwickLife · 30/10/2019 12:51

For those concerned about Labour's sex ID policy and this being a reason not to vote for them...

PLEASE don't rule out Labour just on this one issue. The reason...

As stated before, the likelihood of Labour getting a large majority is basically zero. This policy (if indeed they do actually include it within their manifesto) is much more controversial than their generally popular policies on health, education, transport etc. Therefore, in a minority gov / coalition / alliance (which is the ONLY possible way Labour can even hope to get in) there's no way this would gain enough votes to pass. if Labour do get in, Corbyn will be held to account and basically have his balls in the hands of the other non-Tory parties.

But in any case, a minority Lab gov is going to be too busy dealing with Brexit and their headline policies listed above to start looking at sex ID in any detail. This is the sort of legislation governments look at in their 2nd and 3rd terms, if they get that far.

OP posts:
Trewser · 30/10/2019 12:57

PLEASE don't rule out Labour just on this one issue

Why on earth not? It's really, really important to me. Stop asking women to move over 'for the greater good'.

Trewser · 30/10/2019 13:04

I have dcs at private school so i am obviously not going to vote Labour anyway,fwiw!

PeterRouseTheFleshofMankind · 30/10/2019 13:08

PLEASE don't rule out Labour just on this one issue. The reason...

The thing is though, this issue is symptomatic of the wider problem that Labour has.

Which is that from where I am standing, it always looks to me like Corbyn and all of the Labour Momentum lot would throw their own Granny under the bus if they thought it would make them look good and meant they didn't stray from their principles
It's not what I want from my leaders, thanks.

prettybird · 30/10/2019 13:11

...maybe because 5 years of unfettered Conservative (who, by the way, also agree with self-id Confused) government would be damaging for whole sections of vulnerable people - especially women Confused

If you want to vote for a party that doesn't agree with self-id, then you've got a choice of UKIP or the Farage Brexit Party (if they ever produce a manifesto) Hmm

I agree that sex-based protection for women is important - but so is them not having to live in (increasing) poverty and in unsafe workplaces and trapped in abusive marriages through the probably intended consequences of UC Sad

PeterRouseTheFleshofMankind · 30/10/2019 13:17

If you want to vote for a party that doesn't agree with self-id, then you've got a choice of UKIP or the Farage Brexit Party (if they ever produce a manifesto)

I know, fucking depressing isn't it....

Driedlimes · 30/10/2019 13:17

Well said @prettybird & others who were far more eloquent than me.

Alsohuman · 30/10/2019 13:33

Absolutely @prettybird. When your hair’s on fire, you don’t worry too much about your shoes pinching.

CendrillonSings · 30/10/2019 13:51

PLEASE don't rule out Labour just on this one issue.

Of course not - I rule them out for around a dozen issues, of which their far-left lunacy is the important one...

birdsdestiny · 30/10/2019 14:19

If you are relying on the current Labour party to help women escape abusive situations then you are throwing petrol on the burning hair.
Perhaps have a look at the information on the man on Corbyns staff who was accused of abusive behaviour.
It is no good saying that the Tories are sooo much worse, that tactic does not work. It didn't work for the democrats in America and it doesn't work here. It's one of the great failures of the modern left. I say this a a lefty remainer. Minimising the reasons why people don't want to vote labour is an awful tactic.

randomsabreuse · 30/10/2019 14:21

My view on self ID is that if no-one has any rights other than those bought by money there will be no rights/services to identify into.

Sport is irrelevant on a national level- the rules are set internationally by the IOC etc and the UK has never had much influence there. Hardly going to get more at the moment... sports scholarships are effectively irrelevant in the UK.

Therefore self-ID is only relevant if we have lots of nice, probably EU mandated, rights to protect, which we won't post Brexit anyway.

Given the ridiculous saga of extensions the first logical step is to revoke a50, do another referendum without time pressure so there is a reasonable campaign period with useful information rather than soundbytes...

I generally dislike the labour preference for creating equality by dragging anything good down rather than improving things for everyone - hence policy/soundbytes about public schools, grammar schools and the interminable fence sitting on the most important issue around.

I'm voting Lib Dem

pollyputthepastaon · 30/10/2019 14:29

I agree with @Trewser

This is really important to send a clear message. Women can't just be collateral damage in the fight for Brexit.

Graphista · 30/10/2019 14:32

“The current Tories have a right wing agenda“

The tories ALWAYS have a right wing agenda they’re a right wing party always have been always will be.

I’m honestly astonished at the lack of awareness from some posters as to what the tories stand for. Can’t remember all the usernames but how on EARTH are you SURPRISED that they are anti women, anti working class, anti welfare state, anti decent funding of public services? And if you think they aren’t ALSO racist AND anti-Semitic (one of the main criticisms of the Labour Party, although from what I’ve seen it’s less anti Semitic and more not blindly pro Israel!) then quite honestly you’re deluded!

They have a very long history of being the party for very wealthy, elite WASP men! That’s who they prioritise EVERY time!

I’m equally astonished at those who seem completely unaware of Labour Party history and ethos. I’ve said before on political threads and it’s rarely not the case that there are an awful lot of posters who describe themselves as “lifelong labour voters” and they’re not necessarily inaccurate technically if they’re aged 40 or younger, but it means they have quite possibly never voted for a Labour Party true to the origins and ethos of the party if they haven’t voted since corbyn became leader.

Because in my and many others opinion the leaders from Blair until Harman were NOT true Labour Party people and as a result the party lost its way somewhat during this period. Being often “Tory lite”

The current Labour Party are far closer to the original beliefs and policies of the historic Labour Party.

I would have been a lifelong labour voter myself had it not been for Blair and his acolytes. Never trusted him from the off and was proven right over time, and believe me I’ve had other labour voters who liked him & his really take me to task over it but I always felt he was duplicitous and not truly committed to labour heart and I was right.

I genuinely don’t understand anyone who votes Tory who isn’t at least upper middle class, but more likely independently wealthy, because they have absolutely zero regard for anyone who is below that strata. They don’t believe in the welfare state, the nhs, workers rights, tertiary education being available to all, publicly funded social care...

They think being poor is a character flaw, they think they’re better off because they “work hard” which is bollocks because nmw workers, nurses, carers, police officers etc all work a damn sight harder than the average exec! They think many illnesses and disabilities are down to people not taking responsibility for their health.

As a mentally ill person I can tell you whatever they might say in press releases, their actions in terms of funding for mh services and how the mentally ill are treated in terms of getting benefits or even in attempting to return to work show how they REALLY think and it ain’t pretty!!

So if you or any of your loved ones are in need of Nhs, social care, education, anti discrimination policies being upheld, in receipt of benefits, in low paid jobs then you’d be voting against all of them by voting Tory.

Wealthy people voting Tory I may not like but I get it, at least it’s honest in being self serving and it makes sense.

I have a few friends who are Tory voters, 2 of them are from extremely wealthy backgrounds and while we disagree i understand where they’re coming from. The others include a single mum in a nmw job getting top up benefits who constantly complains about the low nmw etc, a working class couple not much younger than my parents who are struggling health/fitness wise to keep working as they can’t afford to retire, and a disabled guy who is working but his employers are getting less and less flexible about the time he needs off for hospital appointments etc and he complains about that and when appointments are cancelled as the services are unavailable due to cuts. Yet these latter ones are voting for the very party that is making their lives harder - I don’t get it at all.

“Historic demonisation of 'single mothers don't you mean the Daily Mail?” I’m sure that poster didn’t mean that at all! The demonisation of single mothers is VERY clear in their policies and implementation of those policies eg 2 child limit and rape clause, which mainly affect women not only exists but is stringently enforced whereas the laws regarding child maintenance are very poorly enforced and the majority of nrps are...men! And rps are mostly women and they AND the children suffer as a result of the almost complete lack of will to address the inequalities here. That’s just one example there are many!

prettybird · 30/10/2019 14:37

.... breeeeaathe Graphista Wink

Graphista · 30/10/2019 14:50

I'm fine Smile I'm having a fairly chilled day actually and I enjoy political debate thanks

PeterRouseTheFleshofMankind · 30/10/2019 14:52

Can’t remember all the usernames but how on EARTH are you SURPRISED that they are anti women, anti working class, anti welfare state, anti decent funding of public services?

And yet, in the face of all that, Labour aren't able to offer a credible opposition? It's actually quite a feat, to be that shit a party that even in the face of what the Conservatives are doing, people still have reservations about voting for you.

The current Labour Party are far closer to the original beliefs and policies of the historic Labour Party.

The current Labour Party only care about appealing to a certain sector of young people and looking woke whilst they do it. They have abandoned their traditional voters and guess what, those voters have gone elsewhere, what a surprise.

HPFA · 30/10/2019 14:54

Funnily enough I seem to remember there was a leak of a Conservative document saying how they intended to weaponise issues such as self ID to hurt Labour.

If you're going to vote Conservative then do so, it's not my choice but you have the absolute right to make it.

But please spare us the faux concern for how much self-ID will hurt poor women when you're planning to vote for a party whose "Brexit Deal" will cost the country billions and represents a massive threat to all our most important rights and protections. Ask a "poor woman" whether they'd sooner have a functioning NHS or the removal of a one in a million chance that a man might enter a woman's toilet while she's actually using it.

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