Westministenders: Sub-Prime Minister at large

[BigChocFrenzy]

Our Sub-Prime Minister BJ is threatening a govt tantrum strike until he is allowed his Haribo GE on 12 December.

If MPs vote for a GE, he has promised them "more time" to debate the WAB,
but that would only be from 29 October to 7 November

• ridiculously inadequate for such complex legislation -

before Parliament is automatically dissolved for the 25 sitting days before a GE.

The GE debate starts Monday 2:30 pm in the HoC
Corbyn says he'll agree to a GE if BJ takes No Deal off the table

BUT wIth this WA,
No deal cannot 100% be taken off the table whilst the Tories are in office:

they could still No Deal after transition ends on 31 December 2020,
if they don't request a transition by July.

We don't know when the EU will give their decision on an extension, or what it will be:

The EU may decide only after the HoC vote
- in which case MPs would be voting "blindly"

Tusk, Merkel & most other leaders want to grant the Flextension until 31 January,
but Macron & a few others want to give a short extension of only 2-4 weeks, to pressure MPs to pass the WA in November

• in which case the GE would take place shortly after Brexit, which would be a gift to BJ.

A 12 December GE would also cause serious logistical problems for local council officials:

Apart from their poll station bookings clashing with Xmas bookings for church halls & schools,

they are legally required to send out all the polling cards based on the current electoral roll,
then at the GE, check names against the new electoral roll which must be updated on 1 December

The Rebel Alliance want a long extension, so they have time to add amendments to the WAB,
e.g. a CU, the Level Playing Field agreement in May's WA, maybe even a PV
So many may want to vote against a GE before that ..... but what does Corbyn want ?

BJ as PM could still change the date of any GE after he has agreed to it, if it suits him.

What does BJ want ?
Alice Cooper said it:

"I'm your top prime cut of meat, I'm your choice
I wanna be elected
I'm your yankee doodle dandy in a gold Rolls Royce
I wanna be elected
Kids want a savior, don't need a fake

I wanna be elected
We're all gonna rock to the rules that I make
I wanna be elected, elected, elected..."

m.youtube.com/watch?v=cSvy8HpxFxo

• Post edited to correct dates

The problem with cheap/free university is that higher education costs a lot of money, so if students don't pay for it there is a strong incentive for govt and HE institutions to cut costs and quality.

In France middle class kids with rich parents by and large don't go to university, for this very reason. Rich kids are filtered via a system of competitive exams into highly selective and often very expensive engineering and business schools with fees similar to a U.K. university.

And because there are no students loans (in the U.K. sense), poor students have significantly less choice than wealthy ones.

Ds1s first week of 6th form we spent £850
Luckily we had it, but it was sobering to realise that those who have to pay monthly pay £250 pa more...
Luckily, it'll be a while before ds2 goes (if he does...)

listening I don't think you understand what it's like to grow up poor and the barriers in the way to break out of that

I was perfectly aware that a degree would give me a much better chance - particularly then when only about 6% of kids went to uni

However, being poor gives a horror of debt
and also a horror of several more years before I could start earning like other kids my age were going to do

About 50% don't go to uni now
I wonder how many of them are from lower income families, who were also too appalled by the idea of debt
and by the pressure of getting started on earning.

Misti I don't agree with a "graduate" tax
Tax should be based on income or wealth, not educational status.

Why should a poor kid who goes to uni pay a higher rate of tax than someone whose parents paid for fees & living expenses,
or indeed a higher rate than a classmate who left school at 15 but became a millionaire through building up a scrap metal business

Hooo That's disgusting
When I went to school, we all got on the free school bus together, regardless of parental income

If I was growing up now, I wouldn't have gone to uni
I'd probably have turned to crime, tbh

Ds1 is already worried about student loans..:(
Dh and I have tried to make him understand that we will find the money but he is very risk averse - even at 16! :)

BigChoc
I do not understand being poor as I was very lucky to have a pretty privileged upbringing
BUT
my kids's friends include people with a deep aversion to debt linked to unbreakable grinding poverty traps
and they tell me how loans are viewed by the people they know who did (and did not) go to University

I am utterly against the massive numbers being forced into Degrees nowadays
its not good for them
its not good for business
its not good for the Exchequer

Greater Manchester just introduced free bus passes for all 16-18 year olds (Our Pass), one of the few good things about TfGM transport! Saved us hundreds this year.

@Mistigri, I’m sorry but I fully disagree with your analysis of the French how system.

The reason people chose competitive schools has nothing to do with prices (eg most engineering schools are as inexpensive as Uni and the ‘private’ ones are seeing as ‘buying your diploma’ aka worthless).
The reasons you have schools like this is historical and based on the fact the French system is elitist. The whole thing is based on the idea of selecting the best pupils again and again. Incl for schools such as Polytechnqiues, Pont et Chaussées etc.. which are all engineering schools created way way before any of that existed.

Sos I agree 100% with the first line of your post at 21:40:19.
All the best to you and your GD.

I got a school bus and for the last two years of school a weekly grant which meant my parents didn't have to support me and I could afford things like train fares for university interviews. I had to contact the universities and ask them to change dates as I could only afford one main set of train fares, the universities all helped me out.
I debated going the Army sponsorship route due to my fear of debt and nowadays I would definitely have made that choice. I was terrified of debt.

Returning to GE ....
it depends on the timing of the campaign and whether more of BJ's skeletons fall out of the closet with a loud enough thump

This was from 2017 - but I don't think Corbyn can reppeat the magic Grandpa act

Theresa May hits 50% of vote in latest poll - which would deliver a Tory general election landslide

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/theresa-hits-magical-50-per-10277463.amp

I grew up v poor and would never have gone to uni if I'd had to take out a loan. Just one discouragement too many

Absolutely. People from well-off backgrounds never seem to be able to understand this.

This was from 2017 - but I don't think Corbyn can reppeat the magic Grandpa act

Last time, the policy was to attack spending plans and to attack his views towards nuclear defence and terrorists.

I don't think they can go for spending plans now - given what Boris wants to do.

There is plenty of ammunition for Labour and the Lib Dems - we have had years of austerity.

It's just a real shame that Brexit is going to be there as well - because there is so much more than Brexit. Yet many people will see Brexit as their biggest reason to vote for a party.

Will Macron cause us to be No Deal on Thursday?

It costs £298 a term railfare for dgd to go to her school. It is not a private or independent school just our diocese high school ( but a great school). If it wasn't for the schools bursary there is no way we could have afforded books equipment and open days for universities.
Fees for disadvantaged should be free for unis IMO.

Dreichsky In 6th form, I made preliminary enquiries about military sponsorship for uni - I was worried about 3 years not earning
Howeve, they said then that as a girl I should get a degree first, then apply (early 1970s)

After I got my PhD and was finishing my first job (a 2-year post-doctoral research fellowship) I applied to an advert to join as an officer, age limit 30
..... but was then told apologetically that the advert should have said 26 and under for women - I was then 27
They then changed the advert v quickly to state the lower age limit for women

This was early 1980s ...... and we could return to such discriminatory practices if the Tories have their "Bonfire of EU regulations" after Brexit

the ‘private’ ones are seeing as ‘buying your diploma’ aka worthless

Your knowledge is way out of date. Go and google the fees at HEC or Mines.

According to Robert Peston and Observer journalists the Lib Dems and SNP are going to put forward a proposal for an election on Monday 9th Dec. I'm not sure of the logic behind this, will have to read more, just seen a post on Twitter. Does anyone else understand this ? I think I am missing the point.

Operation Brock starts on Monday.

Misti I don't agree with a "graduate" tax
Tax should be based on income or wealth, not educational status.

BCF, I think that's a perfectly reasonably argument, though I don't agree with it because I think that on balance I think that (a) there are ways of ensuring that less wealthy students can access university education and (b) the risk of making university free is that it makes it vulnerable to cost-cutting. And if the quality of free education falls, wealthy parents will buy or sharp-elbow their kids out of the system, as they do in France.

Operation Brock starts on Monday.

I saw reports on twitter that it was being put in place today. Big lorry queues in Kent.

I sort of see ds1s concern.

The Govt have really fucked students over who took Student Loans out...hiking up interest etc

Thank you Born

It cost my dd and myself £300 to go to an open day. We only got dgds fare back £70.
We have to back for an interview in November. This time I will drive. Because I will drive we get nothing back. It is a 600 mile round trip. Hopefully dgd will get an offer after interview. It will have cost us over £600 for the two trips ( train fare for dd hotel and food, petrol hotel when I take dgd) . That £600 is what my dd and I have saved up for 10 months to buy a PC for dgd for uni for Xmas. That will now have to wait till next July. Along with all the hoops to jump through to even get to a decent uni you have to struggle and toil for essential items like a PC for uni!

Tom Newton Dunn@tnewtondunn

Brexiteer Labour MP Kate Hoey says it will be “very difficult” for her own party to win an election “because we haven’t done what we’ve said in our manifesto”.
With friends like that...
#bbcr4today