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Brexit

Westminstenders: Don't and Keep Living

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2019 13:19

Status Recall as of approx 1

Johnson’s Withdrawal Agreement (The WA) :
Currently parliamentary session blocked in its current form due to being nodded through (government accept defeat without vote). It can not be represented to the house without changes (which the EU will not allow - unless perhaps it reverts back to May's WA) or a 'substantive change of circumstances' (eg another party says they will support it and there is reason to believe Johnson now has a clear majority).

The Withdrawal Agreement Bill (The WAB):
The withdrawal agreement bill is purely about how the WA will be carried out in UK law. It passed its 2nd reading which is merely a indication of interest of support for the bill. The next stage is where amendments can be made and this is most relevant to the political declaration which accompanies the WA settlement.

This however has hit a road block due to the government recklessly and foolishly trying to push such an important and far reaching bill through in a ridiculous time frame, which no one could possibly give proper scrutiny to.

If Johnson wants a deal in the best int3of the country its an essential part of the process regardless of which side of the fence you sit. Failure to spot problems could leave us shafted by other countries later down the line.

The timetable is now under review and negotiation with Corbyn.

The extension with the EU:
The EU president has signaled he would support an extension. This is in part because issues in London mean it is highly unlikely the EU will be able to ratify a deal by next Thursday even if they have an emergency meeting. It's in their interests to extend in some way.

Going along with the Benn Act is the politically least risky option, though France are making growling noises about it.

Two issues spring up with this. The first is the issue of the UK having no EU Commissioner after 1st Nov and the second is the EU budget runs until 31st Dec 2019.

The Queens Speech:
The government as it stands might struggle to pass the QS especially with the DUP off side. It failing to pass is, in some ways, a good thing for Johnson. The speech was essentially a manifesto and blocking it is a good electioneering strategy. It also puts pressure on the opposition for a Vote of No Confidence.

There are already rumblings following the passing of the 2nd reading of the WAB and the EU signally they are open to an extension that some in Labour (including crucially Corbyn) do think they must agree to a GE in the autumn.

A Vonc is still unlikely to happen until the EU formalise the extension and the EU are unlikely to do this until its clear what Johnson's next move with the WAB is. Johnson meanwhile doesn't want to agree to a longer timetable as that ruins his do or die speech and facilitates an extension. So expect some brinkmanship over timings here. We might not get a formal extension approved until the wire.

The GE:
All Brexit is currently about is manoeuvring to win the next GE. It must be seen in this context.

Polling suggests that an extension without the WA is bad for Johnson and he is likely to lose support to the Brexit Party. There is an ever shrinking likelihood of the WA going through before 31st Oct, if its not impossible already. Thus Johnson needs to see if he can get the WA through very quickly after an extension but before a GE.

This reasonably lines up with Labour's problems. Before the WA goes through a GE looks bad for them with them haemorrhaging support to the LDs and the the Brexit Party.

If they are seen to facilitate the WA passing before an election then there may also be a sense of betrayal amongst their majority remain supporters but it might let them off with the Brexit Party threat particularly in the Midlands.

Meanwhile the SNP have an increasing desire for a GE. They look like they will clean up in Scotland and it might be their last chance now to stop Brexit. Similar logic applies to the LDs.

Thus the chances of a GE shoot up once an extension is granted, but the Cons and Labour have a mutual self interest in getting a deal done ASAP before a GE in many ways.

This of course would probably suit the French and therefore the EU.

Which is why a deal before 15th Nov and by the 15th Dec, isnt unrealistic. A GE might come before Christmas but I think both the Cons and Lab have something of an interest in letting the dust settle and getting new messaging in to head off threats from the LDs and Brexit Party. I'd be more inclined to say a Feb election tbh.

Anyway things may have changed since I started typing this up given how quickly things are moving.

But despite the headlines that Brexit is in pergortory it is now slowly rolling forward and now has some momentum behind it.

OP posts:
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TatianaLarina · 24/10/2019 16:14

absolutely agree that the NHS is picking up the mess left by the social care system. Whatever the safeguarding responsibilities Councils have, the fact as I have witnessed is that NHS orthopaedic wards are full of octogenarians who were not safe in their homes and have fallen. On an orthopaedic ward where there were six bays each with six beds, over 80% of the beds were occupied by old people with dementia that was at the level of or far worse than my FIL’s, by the time he needed 24 hour care to keep him safe.

Absolutely. A friend of mine just took over as head of emergency care at his hospital. He is a consultant geriatrician and the vast majority of emergency care is now elderly people.

A diagnosis of dementia in itself doesn’t mean a person will qualify for ‘continuing’ NHS healthcare. If they have dementia + complex health and care needs, it may be possible. But afair they need to qualify as having a ‘primary health need’. If not they have to pay for their social care. Which is fair enough but it’s very very expensive. So then you get dementia sufferers falling out of bed, wandering the streets, and ending up in hospital - where else are they going to go?

TokyoSushi · 24/10/2019 16:18

Just my usual public service announcement:

Paul Brand
@PaulBrandITV
Potential timings this afternoon...

1500-1600ish - political cabinet

1745ish - vote on Queen's Speech

1800ish - PM could address the Commons to call again for a general election

It could be an eventful evening.
4:10 pm · 24 Oct 2019·Twitter Web App

Basilpots · 24/10/2019 16:18

www.explaintrade.com/blogs/2019/10/24/the-new-irish-border-deal

Not sure if this has been posted before but it’s an explanation of Johnson’s deal and it’s v.long but It.Is.In.English.

Not trade wonk speak.

I actually understand it. Smile

It’s by Dimitry Grozoubinski. (I know he has a couple of fans on here.) Grin

Basilpots · 24/10/2019 16:20

www.explaintrade.com/blogs/2019/10/24/the-new-irish-border-deal

Link that works.

My trade knowledge now exceeds my ability to post a link Grin

prettybird · 24/10/2019 16:21

www.explaintrade.com/blogs/2019/10/24/the-new-irish-border-deal

Clickable link Smile

derxa · 24/10/2019 16:42

www.britishfarmingawards.co.uk/john-geldard/
I had a good chat with this fellow about Brexit at the Highland Show. He voted Remain but now just wants a clear decision. We can adapt after that.

Basilpots · 24/10/2019 16:44

If I was in opposition I would be tempted to vote QS through. Then wave the good bits through like domestic violence bill and kick the bad bits like voter id into touch. Grin

Might as well take full advantage of a minority Government whilst you can.

(I do realise this will never happen)

RedToothBrush · 24/10/2019 16:46

Austerity begs to differ

I agree and disagree.

I think there are a lot of people for whom austerity didn't happen. It just didn't have much of an impact and the effects to others were invisible. They applied personal financial logic to society as a whole thinking the two were the same.

The difference between 'living within your own means' as an individual and the state trying to do that is huge, because if the state cuts back in one area there is an unintended hidden economic and social cost elsewhere.

When the penny has dropped with some people they have actively changed their minds on a political and ideological level.

It doesn't reverse the harm its done in the meantime but unless we have this capacity to encourage people who do change their minds in politics and change direction, I think we are doomed to an even worse fate.

Admitting youve fucked up is an enormous part of starting the long hard process of putting things right.

One of the main problems in this all is the widening social divide where people live within their own bubbles and have very little contact with people from different backgrounds.

And that goes straight to the heart of the Brexit problem itself too.

OP posts:
TokyoSushi · 24/10/2019 16:51

Beth Rigby
@BethRigby
·
10m
Govt to table a motion for GE Monday

derxa · 24/10/2019 16:53

One of the main problems in this all is the widening social divide where people live within their own bubbles and have very little contact with people from different backgrounds.And that goes straight to the heart of the Brexit problem itself too.
This is very true

thecatfromjapan · 24/10/2019 16:57

I'm a bit worried about a GE before scrutiny and discussion of the WAB.

To say the media haven't done their job informing people of the implications of Johnson's deal is an understatement.

🤷‍♀️

I am depressed.

Basilpots · 24/10/2019 16:57

He voted Remain but now just wants a clear decision. We can adapt after that.

I keep flip flopping Dex uncertainty is really not helping business at all. From a purely selfish POV we need to stay in the single market but I know this will never happen atm. I just feel this Government has completely underestimated just how important this is. Now matter how good a trade deal with US is it can’t overcome geography. Stuff takes longer to get here and costs way more in transportation. It makes no sense to slow down and increase the cost of trade with our nearest neighbours.

But Brexit isn’t about economics....

tobee · 24/10/2019 16:58

Understandable cat but he's got to get it first.

thecatfromjapan · 24/10/2019 16:59

'Adapting' actually means 'going out of business' for a lot of people, derxa.

I mean that.

Closing your business, accepting it just isn't going to work in the new terrain, is 'adaptation'.

tobee · 24/10/2019 17:00

Just wanted to share this story, for no reason really:-

Rats taught to drive tiny cars to lower their stress levels www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50167812

prettybird · 24/10/2019 17:00

Is BJ assuming that the EU will have given a response by Monday? Hmm

If they haven't and his refusal to bring the WAB back to Parliament is telling Hmm not that the Brexit sheeple will understand that Angry then his attempt to get a GE will fail again Confused

tobee · 24/10/2019 17:02

More blackmail:-

PM says he will try for 12 December election www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50174402

DGRossetti · 24/10/2019 17:03

I could always throw someone into the sea, and suggest they adapt to breathing water.

prettybird · 24/10/2019 17:06

PM says he will try for 12 December election https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50174402n

.... PM says he will give MPs more time to debate Brexit deal but only if they agree to 12 December general election

What would the point be then? Since Parliament would be need to be dissolved for the GE. Confused

prettybird · 24/10/2019 17:06

It's both bullying and blackmail - and pointless Angry

tobee · 24/10/2019 17:08

Help me someone, I'm so confused! Does Johnson want to leave the eu or does he want a general election? It's so hard to tell!?!? Hmm

DGRossetti · 24/10/2019 17:08

What happens if he doesn't get the election ? Will he pull his Brexit bill, or try and ram it through (again ?) ?

thecatfromjapan · 24/10/2019 17:10

What.an.arse.

NoWordForFluffy · 24/10/2019 17:12

Nothing says happy Christmas like a general election!

prettybird · 24/10/2019 17:12

If my calculations are correct, the FTPA means that for a 12 December GE, Parliament would need to be dissolved no later than 6 November Hmm

So I repeat, just when will this "extra" time come from? Just over a week from when the FTPA Act might be over-ridden is still not sufficient to do it properly. Hmm