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Brexit

Westminstenders: Don't and Keep Living

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2019 13:19

Status Recall as of approx 1

Johnson’s Withdrawal Agreement (The WA) :
Currently parliamentary session blocked in its current form due to being nodded through (government accept defeat without vote). It can not be represented to the house without changes (which the EU will not allow - unless perhaps it reverts back to May's WA) or a 'substantive change of circumstances' (eg another party says they will support it and there is reason to believe Johnson now has a clear majority).

The Withdrawal Agreement Bill (The WAB):
The withdrawal agreement bill is purely about how the WA will be carried out in UK law. It passed its 2nd reading which is merely a indication of interest of support for the bill. The next stage is where amendments can be made and this is most relevant to the political declaration which accompanies the WA settlement.

This however has hit a road block due to the government recklessly and foolishly trying to push such an important and far reaching bill through in a ridiculous time frame, which no one could possibly give proper scrutiny to.

If Johnson wants a deal in the best int3of the country its an essential part of the process regardless of which side of the fence you sit. Failure to spot problems could leave us shafted by other countries later down the line.

The timetable is now under review and negotiation with Corbyn.

The extension with the EU:
The EU president has signaled he would support an extension. This is in part because issues in London mean it is highly unlikely the EU will be able to ratify a deal by next Thursday even if they have an emergency meeting. It's in their interests to extend in some way.

Going along with the Benn Act is the politically least risky option, though France are making growling noises about it.

Two issues spring up with this. The first is the issue of the UK having no EU Commissioner after 1st Nov and the second is the EU budget runs until 31st Dec 2019.

The Queens Speech:
The government as it stands might struggle to pass the QS especially with the DUP off side. It failing to pass is, in some ways, a good thing for Johnson. The speech was essentially a manifesto and blocking it is a good electioneering strategy. It also puts pressure on the opposition for a Vote of No Confidence.

There are already rumblings following the passing of the 2nd reading of the WAB and the EU signally they are open to an extension that some in Labour (including crucially Corbyn) do think they must agree to a GE in the autumn.

A Vonc is still unlikely to happen until the EU formalise the extension and the EU are unlikely to do this until its clear what Johnson's next move with the WAB is. Johnson meanwhile doesn't want to agree to a longer timetable as that ruins his do or die speech and facilitates an extension. So expect some brinkmanship over timings here. We might not get a formal extension approved until the wire.

The GE:
All Brexit is currently about is manoeuvring to win the next GE. It must be seen in this context.

Polling suggests that an extension without the WA is bad for Johnson and he is likely to lose support to the Brexit Party. There is an ever shrinking likelihood of the WA going through before 31st Oct, if its not impossible already. Thus Johnson needs to see if he can get the WA through very quickly after an extension but before a GE.

This reasonably lines up with Labour's problems. Before the WA goes through a GE looks bad for them with them haemorrhaging support to the LDs and the the Brexit Party.

If they are seen to facilitate the WA passing before an election then there may also be a sense of betrayal amongst their majority remain supporters but it might let them off with the Brexit Party threat particularly in the Midlands.

Meanwhile the SNP have an increasing desire for a GE. They look like they will clean up in Scotland and it might be their last chance now to stop Brexit. Similar logic applies to the LDs.

Thus the chances of a GE shoot up once an extension is granted, but the Cons and Labour have a mutual self interest in getting a deal done ASAP before a GE in many ways.

This of course would probably suit the French and therefore the EU.

Which is why a deal before 15th Nov and by the 15th Dec, isnt unrealistic. A GE might come before Christmas but I think both the Cons and Lab have something of an interest in letting the dust settle and getting new messaging in to head off threats from the LDs and Brexit Party. I'd be more inclined to say a Feb election tbh.

Anyway things may have changed since I started typing this up given how quickly things are moving.

But despite the headlines that Brexit is in pergortory it is now slowly rolling forward and now has some momentum behind it.

OP posts:
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Arborea · 24/10/2019 09:19

dementia patients (for example) are held in hospitals rather than in specialist centers; they have no home help any more due to the stripping of social services

In the interests of accuracy, this isn't actually a reflection of current policy and practice. Local authorities can be charged for 'bed blockers' and ime hospitals are very sometime too keen to shunt patients with dementia out asap so they can deal with the next acutely unwell patient instead.

Also there are home helps: very many people with dementia in the earlier stages are cared for at home, typically by domiciliary carers topped up with support from family members. There's a limit to how much domiciliary care - about 4 visits a day tends to be the maximum that LAs fund, but this model tends to be the starting point and will typically carry on until the person isn't able to manage safely at home any more, at which point a residential placement would be considered.

That's not to say that there aren't huge issues in social care, because there absolutely are: to give just a few examples, pay and working conditions are poor, particularly for the level of responsibilities faced, staff engagement is generally low, it is not valued properly by society and is seen as low status, and the overall way that care funding works is arguably arbitrary and unfair.

However it's a classic example of a political can that politicians can't resist kicking down the road, because it would be politically difficult to propose a solution that mainstream media would get behind - and for an example of how powerful the media's influence can be, just look at the pasting Teresa May took regarding the 'dementia tax'.

TheMShip · 24/10/2019 09:19

Misti Canada has some private provision of services as well, and it's fine. Knee replacements and cataract surgery are the two big examples. High need, straightforward procedures, low risk of complications.

TheMShip · 24/10/2019 09:27

Arborea makes a good point about social care services. Social care is a misnomer in many cases, aides are helping with medical tasks as well as personal care. It needs to be funded from general taxation with no post code lottery the way the NHS is and that's going to cost. I would favour a rise in inheritance tax to help with this, or at least a lowering of the threshold at which it applies.

Of course that runs into the issue of house prices and inheritance. So that's the second thing that I want very much to see a left wing govt bring in: a massive social home building programme. Reducing housing inequality would affect so many of the other inequalities in the UK, and thus the anger, division, and resentment that we're dealing with now.

Pipe dreams, I guess.

thecatfromjapan · 24/10/2019 09:29

Health service in UK is way cheaper than elsewhere - primarily because there isn't a private-paid-by-state option and NICE holding prices down.

Obviously, there are downsides to this (choice being one).

But it's worth beating in mind that costs would rise - and the UK is addicted to the idea of low taxes, so it would inevitably lead to more cut backs for those who can't take the completely private route in the UK.

thecatfromjapan · 24/10/2019 09:31

For all our talk of cherishing the NHS in the UK, it remains true that the UK electorate is hugely resistant to actually paying for public devices via taxation. And into that gap, the NHS falls.

NoCryingInEngineering · 24/10/2019 09:34

Our surgery offers online booking of appointments. But, you have to sign up for the online service as a separate system for each patient and the system automatically boots you out if you haven't used it for 2 years.

In 10 years I have used the GPs 4 times (3 preg related, 1 ear infection). DH has been once, DS has had 2 visits in 5 years (apart from inoculations which are a different system) and DD has only been for jags. So each time we would have needed to re-register for the online system....

BlaueLagune · 24/10/2019 09:39

Not to mention DCs schools insistence on having proof of appts beforehand (a print out won't do) which sucks when you have a DC with ongoing problems They can't ask for that, tell them to naff off (to quote the Princess Royal). GPs have got better things to do than pander to schools' assumptions that they know more about kids' health than they do. If they mark the absence as non-approved, so what? Only affects the school when Ofsted comes calling, and if you get a call from a EWO you tell them the situation and tell them to sort the school out.

DGRossetti · 24/10/2019 09:39

(100% online booking would help.)

For a service used most heavily by the old/infirm? Not for many years.

Don't worry, they can still write off for their appointments with quill pens on vellum. But there should be the availability of online booking for 100% of the population if they want.

We are incredibly lucky in that we can use online booking for our GP. And can usually book an appointment within a couple of days which - reading AIBU long enough - I realise is a pipe dream for a lot.

Given the penetration of email (invented in the 1960s) into modern life, I think 2050 might actually be a tad too ambitious. It may be the health secretary that announces the policy hasn't yet been born.

OublietteBravo · 24/10/2019 09:44

Our surgery has online booking, but I can’t use it. Apparently because someone else at the same surgery has the same DOB as I do HmmConfused

They always seem to change the appointments anyway. I’ve given up on the idea of going for a smear test because they moved the appointment so many times. In fact I’m stating to suspect that the only time they do them is 14:00-15:00 on a Thursday.

DGRossetti · 24/10/2019 09:46

and the UK is addicted to the idea of low taxes

I think that's unfair. Parties - Labour and LibDems certainly - have campaigned openly on pledges of increased taxes to fund healthcare. It's the distorting prism of FPTP which makes it seem we are a country of freeloaders.

Part of the problem is that there's a certain uncritical thinking going on which fails to see that "low taxes=pay for everything yourself". As you swing the dial from left to right on your politicmeter, you go from an general insurance model where everyone pays in against the odds, to an increasingly hypothecated model where people only pay for what they use.

Personally I believe in insurance ...

Speaking of insurance, that'll be the Next Big Thing, as more and more data allows insurers to hypothecate more and more. It's already happening to a certain extent with some people simply being uninsurable. Be it motor, health, life or home.

TokyoSushi · 24/10/2019 09:46

Apologies, I need to catch up, but is the Queens speech vote today?

I'm sure I read that it was earlier in the week, but like everything, that could well have changed by now!

Ellie56 · 24/10/2019 09:56

What is the likelihood of the QS passing? I read somewhere that the highly disgruntled DUP were considering not supporting the Government.

ContinuityError · 24/10/2019 10:02

but the WAB contains provisions to deport EU citizens; DExEu asked the home office to estimate how many and how much it would cost and apparently they refused

That will be why it is listed as non-monetised in the DExEU impact assessment - looks like conduct committed before the end of the transition period must still be considered against the higher EU law thresholds for deportation or refusal of right to enter - which implies that the UK will change this to a lower threshold?

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/brexit/the-eu/withdrawal-agreement-bill-citizens-rights/

ListeningQuietly · 24/10/2019 10:10

The UK government has no idea how many foreign nationals live here long term.
The most recent semi accurate was the 2011 census
since when rather a lot has changed in the world

In the last census 9% of those resident in the UK had no passport of any sort
that is the best part of 6 million people
who might get caught up in stupid policies aimed at non existent problems

thecatfromjapan · 24/10/2019 10:13

Yes, DGR, they have.

But the electorate really do seem to publicly nod along and the quietly punish parties that have a grown-up talk about the need for higher taxation.

🤷‍♀️

I'm always fascinated by MN discussions around taxation. For all the posters who make the case for higher taxation to pay for public services, I sense a penumbra of deep, silent dislike of the idea.

I wish it were otherwise - but it really isn't.

DGRossetti · 24/10/2019 10:16

Meanwhile the ICANN/WhoIs/GDPR battle rumbles on.

An EU-less UK should take note, because if a US outfit like ICANN has no chance against the EU when it comes to toeing the line, what chance does the UK have ?

www.theregister.co.uk/2019/10/23/icann_kills_whois/

GDPR will be a future battleground between the US and EU. Of course out of the EU, the UK can dump GDPR (as the US will insist on as part of any trade deal) which will then shut off the EU.

Fun times ahead !

thecatfromjapan · 24/10/2019 10:17

Isn Dunt is arguing that it's time for Remain to push for a GE.

Amendment for confirmatory vote has no chance - so Remain needs to push for a GE pre-Deal.

www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/10/24/remain-should-push-for-an-election

Basilpots · 24/10/2019 10:18

This will be overseen by the Independent Monitoring Authority in the UK, which will report to the institutions overseeing the Withdrawal Agreement. The European Commission will monitor compliance in member states.

EU have taken notice of Windrush hopefully this will be for longer than the transition period.

DGRossetti · 24/10/2019 10:19

I'm always fascinated by MN discussions around taxation. For all the posters who make the case for higher taxation to pay for public services, I sense a penumbra of deep, silent dislike of the idea.

The iffy-whiffy benefit bashing threads don't help ... I generally bite my tongue, but there really are some thick cunts out there on here.

BercowsFlyingFlamingo · 24/10/2019 10:20

Where are we up to with regards to an extension? Is the 31st October definitely ruled out now?

Peregrina · 24/10/2019 10:24

DGR got there before me on the question of taxes. Wealthy Tories are addicted to low taxes. I doubt whether the rest of us are to anything like the same extent.

thecatfromjapan · 24/10/2019 10:26

Michael Chessum (of Another Europe) is in agreement with Ian Dunt:

Michael Chessum (@michael_chessum)

Twitter

Both Labour and the bloc of anti-Brexit MPs (there is overlap, obviously) have spent a year waiting for the perfect moment. They've stepped back constantly from no confidence votes and elections.

Fine. But too much cleverness amounts to paralysis.

It's time for an election'

Chessum has worked hard for Remain within Labour.

I think both those thinkers coming into alignment suggests non-GE route to stopping Brexit very much hopeless.

thecatfromjapan · 24/10/2019 10:27

Sadly, I really think it's not just wealthy Tories.

There's a gender difference, though: women tend to be more in favour of higher taxes.

TokyoSushi · 24/10/2019 10:30

@BercowsFlyingFlamingo we're still waiting on the EU with regards to election, or more likely Macron. I don't think it's in any doubt that we'll receive one but Marcon is in the South Pacific visting French Overseas territories and enjoying making everyone wait for a response.

The chances of us leaving on 31st though I think are slim to none. So the big question really (apart from the Queens Speech) is once this extension is granted, are we going to have a GE?

thecatfromjapan · 24/10/2019 10:30

Oh, and Jonathon Lis has joined them:

Jonathan Lis (@jonlis1)

'Glad to see Ian and I are on the same page. ‘We can’t keep surviving like this.’ '

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