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Brexit

Westminstenders: Don't and Keep Living

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2019 13:19

Status Recall as of approx 1

Johnson’s Withdrawal Agreement (The WA) :
Currently parliamentary session blocked in its current form due to being nodded through (government accept defeat without vote). It can not be represented to the house without changes (which the EU will not allow - unless perhaps it reverts back to May's WA) or a 'substantive change of circumstances' (eg another party says they will support it and there is reason to believe Johnson now has a clear majority).

The Withdrawal Agreement Bill (The WAB):
The withdrawal agreement bill is purely about how the WA will be carried out in UK law. It passed its 2nd reading which is merely a indication of interest of support for the bill. The next stage is where amendments can be made and this is most relevant to the political declaration which accompanies the WA settlement.

This however has hit a road block due to the government recklessly and foolishly trying to push such an important and far reaching bill through in a ridiculous time frame, which no one could possibly give proper scrutiny to.

If Johnson wants a deal in the best int3of the country its an essential part of the process regardless of which side of the fence you sit. Failure to spot problems could leave us shafted by other countries later down the line.

The timetable is now under review and negotiation with Corbyn.

The extension with the EU:
The EU president has signaled he would support an extension. This is in part because issues in London mean it is highly unlikely the EU will be able to ratify a deal by next Thursday even if they have an emergency meeting. It's in their interests to extend in some way.

Going along with the Benn Act is the politically least risky option, though France are making growling noises about it.

Two issues spring up with this. The first is the issue of the UK having no EU Commissioner after 1st Nov and the second is the EU budget runs until 31st Dec 2019.

The Queens Speech:
The government as it stands might struggle to pass the QS especially with the DUP off side. It failing to pass is, in some ways, a good thing for Johnson. The speech was essentially a manifesto and blocking it is a good electioneering strategy. It also puts pressure on the opposition for a Vote of No Confidence.

There are already rumblings following the passing of the 2nd reading of the WAB and the EU signally they are open to an extension that some in Labour (including crucially Corbyn) do think they must agree to a GE in the autumn.

A Vonc is still unlikely to happen until the EU formalise the extension and the EU are unlikely to do this until its clear what Johnson's next move with the WAB is. Johnson meanwhile doesn't want to agree to a longer timetable as that ruins his do or die speech and facilitates an extension. So expect some brinkmanship over timings here. We might not get a formal extension approved until the wire.

The GE:
All Brexit is currently about is manoeuvring to win the next GE. It must be seen in this context.

Polling suggests that an extension without the WA is bad for Johnson and he is likely to lose support to the Brexit Party. There is an ever shrinking likelihood of the WA going through before 31st Oct, if its not impossible already. Thus Johnson needs to see if he can get the WA through very quickly after an extension but before a GE.

This reasonably lines up with Labour's problems. Before the WA goes through a GE looks bad for them with them haemorrhaging support to the LDs and the the Brexit Party.

If they are seen to facilitate the WA passing before an election then there may also be a sense of betrayal amongst their majority remain supporters but it might let them off with the Brexit Party threat particularly in the Midlands.

Meanwhile the SNP have an increasing desire for a GE. They look like they will clean up in Scotland and it might be their last chance now to stop Brexit. Similar logic applies to the LDs.

Thus the chances of a GE shoot up once an extension is granted, but the Cons and Labour have a mutual self interest in getting a deal done ASAP before a GE in many ways.

This of course would probably suit the French and therefore the EU.

Which is why a deal before 15th Nov and by the 15th Dec, isnt unrealistic. A GE might come before Christmas but I think both the Cons and Lab have something of an interest in letting the dust settle and getting new messaging in to head off threats from the LDs and Brexit Party. I'd be more inclined to say a Feb election tbh.

Anyway things may have changed since I started typing this up given how quickly things are moving.

But despite the headlines that Brexit is in pergortory it is now slowly rolling forward and now has some momentum behind it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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thecatfromjapan · 23/10/2019 22:40

They'd have to be more than naive - wilfully lying to themselves, Swedish.

Johnson can't unilaterally move those rights into the WA. They stay just what they are: a verbal promise made by Johnson.

SwedishEdith · 23/10/2019 22:41

Should have added a winky/terrified face.

thecatfromjapan · 23/10/2019 22:43

To get into the WA requires them being part of a renegotiation with the EU.

The only way to get them in is via an amendment of WAB, passed by House, then taken back to EU and made part of WA mutually agreed between UK and EU.

Oakenbeach · 23/10/2019 22:50

Yeah they abstained, all those clamouring for people to vote for them you ok with this, or is the election really going to be about Brexit for you? Tories in all but name

I’m ok with it (though may well not vote LD). Important thing is that NHS is free at point of delivery rather than every aspect it delivered directly by Government employees.

placemats · 23/10/2019 22:57

Just a gentle reminder that it took years for Greenland to leave the EU and there was one issue, fishing rights.

Also Greenlanders got to have EU citizenship if they so wished.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 23/10/2019 23:08

Important thing is that NHS is free at point of delivery

How long will that last with the Tories cutting funding constantly and then add into the mix if big pharma start being able to charge the price they want for the drugs?

NoCryingInEngineering · 23/10/2019 23:09

This was an amendment to the Queens Speech that was being voted on? So one vague aspirational statement being replaced with another? Not actually anything useful?

By the way do any of you knowledgeable people know if there are any concrete proposals from Labour about the water industry? Timescales or mechanisms? Or just "we want to renationalise"?

prettybird · 23/10/2019 23:17

If the Labour amendment was indeed about repealing the 2012 Health & Social Care Act (aka the Lansley Act), then that was indeed outwith the scope of what was appropriate for QS amendments Grin

The cynic in me might even suspect that it was done deliberately by Labour to try and make the LibDems look bad Hmm

Don't get me wrong: the Lansley Act is an abomination (and doesn't apply in Scotland Wink), so it's in no way because I agree with it Angry

Peregrina · 24/10/2019 01:00

The cynic in me might even suspect that it was done deliberately by Labour to try and make the LibDems look bad

All this has got to stop, with one Opposition party slagging off another - this is all of them. The Tories are in Government; they are making a mess of the Country, that is where their effort needs to go. If Johnson does go manage to go to the country and gets his mandate then he can cut the NHS to ribbons and reward his wealthy chums because that will be what people voted for.

I hope he doesn't manage to get his election, and if he does, I hope he gets another hung Parliament. Failing that I hope something happens to remove him from Office.

Oakenbeach · 24/10/2019 01:00

How long will that last with the Tories cutting funding constantly and then add into the mix if big pharma start being able to charge the price they want for the drugs?

How long will it be before Marks & Spencer is nationalised and all property is confiscated by the state under Corbyn?

Fear-mongering hyperbole works both ways!

The Government has certainly implemented cuts, but the NHS has funding has continued to rise each year under the Tories - though arguably rises were constrained more than they should
have been.

I accept drug prices need to be managed ... but I’m not sure how Labour would necessarily be better at this.... Labour, by opening up their wallets further (though it should be noted
that the Tories did announce a relatively generous additional £6.2bn in Sept) potentially this will just enable Pharma to be paid more!

BigChocFrenzy · 24/10/2019 01:02

Tom Newton Dunn@tnewtondunn

The numbskull who tried his best to ruin #SkyPapers from Westminster tonight by whistling and shouting ‘losers’ and ‘Brexit now’ through out
just admitted to the producer he’s paid £80 a night to do it.

I wonder who by?

Peregrina · 24/10/2019 01:07

Hmm, the Tories have been busy selling off the NHS as stealthily as they can get away with. I haven't heard of Labour taking property away from anyone - or not for a very long time now, like railways being nationalised before I was born.

BigChocFrenzy · 24/10/2019 01:08

The Tories US FTA would mean the NHS pays US level pharma prices, with the consequent strain on its budgets.

A key demand by the US in any FTA is that the NHS purchase of drugs & other medical supplies must be split up into the different local areas,
to prevent the NHS using its massive size to keep prices low

US Pharma say that the effect of the NHS acting as a the healthworld's largest gorilla lowers global drug prices,
not just prices for the UK.

TheMShip · 24/10/2019 01:13

BCF they've been trying that with Canada for years. Even though health care is a provincial responsibility, some drug price regulation happens nationally, and it's a market about half the size of the UK, so pretty big. They're really annoyed at the recent plans to drop the US from their list of comparator countries for price setting.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/09/canada-prescription-drugs-cut-cost

JustAnotherPoster00 · 24/10/2019 01:15

The Government has certainly implemented cuts, but the NHS has funding has continued to rise each year under the Tories - though arguably rises were constrained more than they should
have been.

How's that kool-aid? You seem to have swallowed a lot of it

TheMShip · 24/10/2019 01:30

NHS funding has risen every year. But it's nowhere near enough. Like 3-5 billion a year gap depending who you ask.

fullfact.org/health/spending-english-nhs/

tobee · 24/10/2019 02:33

That bloke gets 80 quid a night? Hopefully not for the whole night! Confused

JeSuisPoulet · 24/10/2019 05:33

The trouble with NHS funding arguments are that the govt has systematically broken down social care to the point where dementia patients (for example) are held in hospitals rather than in specialist centers; they have no home help any more due to the stripping of social services. So, not only do you have increasing life expectancy (well until last year at least - ta Tories Hmm) but you also have other strains added as other areas are stripped which creates a knock-on effect. Really you need to look at how much has been cut from most sectors of society under austerity to follow the trail to why the NHS is on it's knees and then add on all of the workers who have left due to Tory hostile environment. There's only one way to point the finger.

DGRossetti · 24/10/2019 06:58

dementia patients (for example) are held in hospitals rather than in specialist centers; they have no home help any more due to the stripping of social services.

Another thing I will personally guarantee is someone, somewhere, has created a national budget predicated upon "absorbing" such patients homes as an asset like a sort of new found grey-haired North Sea Oil for the vultures circling the UK. There's probably a few, with variations for a "winter dividend" every few years,

Trebles all round !

NoWordForFluffy · 24/10/2019 07:07

How's that kool-aid? You seem to have swallowed a lot of it

Using this phrase really - possibly irrationally - grates on my nerves. Either make a point - by explaining where they're wrong - or don't, but using this is just childish, and doesn't add anything useful, IMO.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 24/10/2019 07:13

but using this is just childish, and doesn't add anything useful, IMO.

Awww bless

NoWordForFluffy · 24/10/2019 07:16

Awww bless

Well, that's not patronising, is it? And continues the childish theme nicely too.

Oakenbeach · 24/10/2019 07:16

How's that kool-aid? You seem to have swallowed a lot of it

As MShip has pointed out, it’s an objective fact that there have been annual spending rises for the NHS under the Tories, and that in “real terms” more is spent than before austerity. That doesn’t suit the simplistic “Tory cuts” message though.

Am I saying I’m happy with how the Tories have managed healthcare and that there aren’t major, systemic problems in areas such as mental health and social care? No, I am not!

I’m just fed up of lazy parroting of political propaganda that doesn’t square with the truth, from whatever source that may be. Brexiteers and the Left can be equally guilty of this. It causes unnecessary division in our society, reduces politics to a set of crude sound bites, and undermines the real engagement in politics by the public that is needed if democracy is to flourish.

mrslaughan · 24/10/2019 07:19

@Oakenbeach - well said

NoWordForFluffy · 24/10/2019 07:20

Yes, @Oakenbeach, very well said (better than I put it! Grin ).

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