Brexit Arms

[time4chocolate]

Not much else to say really 🍷🍷🍷

Facts are facts, no matter their age. Nothing to fight over.

shrugs

Yes Bellini you can pay income tax at age 16 - I used to run PAYE for 16 yr olds that had two jobs and a split tax code.

You don’t need parental consent to marry at age 16 in Scotland.

The reason children and students do not pay income tax is that they don't earn enough. They are subject to the same tax rules as everyone else once their earnings exceed the tax free allowance.

No representation without taxation.

And what about no taxation without representation?

Many Britons in Europe pay U.K. income tax (eg on a civil service pension) without, in many cases, any representation at all.

So. Should 16 yr olds be on a jury then? You know, deciding on rape cases, abuse cases, murders etc...?

Because, that’s only allowed at 18 in law. I guess we should change that too then?

Vote leave made certain promises that are not consistent with this version of Brexit. I understand that for you, Brexit as a concept is more important than those ‘tangibles’ and the probability that we are facing deregulation of food standards and working rights is to you, on balance, worth it for the end result that is Brexit, and if you had known this in advance you would have voted leave in any event. But you don’t speak for everyone who voted leave.

Unless you can guarantee that for all 17.4m people, those tangibles that were promised are irrelevant and that they would have voted to leave in any event, then what you are saying doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

If the vote leave campaign was simply “we don’t know what kind of deal we will get, if any, we don’t know what sort of affect leaving will have on the economy, it could be negative or positive, we don’t know how this will affect the current environment standards and workers rights we currently enjoy etc” then it would be completely different, but they didn’t. They promised it would all be great and many people who voted leave are saying they wish they hadn’t as they didn’t understand how complex leaving would be. A second referendum, now we know what leaving entails, is fair and not at all undemocratic.

My DP has been leave all the way, but would now vote remain due to the likely loss of our current environmental standards with this deal or no deal. He feels like the rug has been pulled from under him.

The 'no taxation without representation' and vice versa is an overly simplistic & reductive thing though.

It's a great soundbite, but is really quite daft.

For example, I don't pay income tax at the moment & haven't for 4 years (or council tax for 3 years of that).

Students don't pay income tax or council tax either.

I pay other taxes though through purchases etc. But then again I may pay similar hidden taxes in other countries if I'm there & I don't expect to vote in any elections during my visit.

It's a silly argument overall imo.

Limited - the ref campaign had several people from both sides saying that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market & Customs Union (mostly from the remain side in actual fact)

I agree Dusty. OTOH, I do think that it's a serious anomaly that Britain is one of the few developed nations worldwide to disenfranchise a significant portion of its adult electorate. (And yes I know that it was Labour that did this, in a cynical attempt to suppress overseas Tory voters.)

Your opinion on voting at 16 will probably depend at least partly on whether you are a parent and, if so, what sort of teenagers you have.

Students don't pay income tax

They do if they earn enough.

They promised it would all be great and many people who voted leave are saying they wish they hadn’t as they didn’t understand how complex leaving would be.

If I didn't do things purely because they might be complex, then I would never have done many things in life.

Being 'complex' is not a good enough reason to not do something.

Being 'complex' is not a good enough reason to not do something.

Absolutely not. It's a good argument for doing it carefully though!

Being complex is why there should never have been a referendum in the first place. How the hell was the British public expected to understand what they were voting for!

Personally i am unpersuaded (by ds2 at least) by recent arguments to allow 16 year olds to vote in general elections

Both are boys have studied or are studying politics at A level, watch all sorts of politics related...stuff. And are very politically minded, ds2 trots down the stairs every morning to give me the latest

I probably could be persuaded, but havent been yet

I have teenagers. I know teenagers. I was a teenager.

That’s enough for me. Voting at 16 is a ridiculous idea. If we allow them a vote, we must all be willing to accept 16 year olds as full adults imho, with all of the benefits that legal adult citizens currently enjoy. Including Jury Duty.

I think it might be prudent for remainers to step
outside of their personal bubble for a moment regarding 16 yr old voters. It follows I think, that as inexperienced voters, 16 yr olds are most likely, as I previously stated, to vote as an extension of their parents and will not have enough personal experience observing politics to form a fully autonomous viewpoint. Brexiteers have 16 yr olds too, this works both ways.

I don’t want to split hairs on who said what, I’m sure we can all agree that the reality of brexit was misrepresented. Just “there is no risk of no deal” for one, is incorrect and this deal could still lead to no-deal next year. The point is, if even one leaver feels that they have been misled, which many have said that they have, having a second referendum would not be undemocratic and I don’t understand why you can’t see this.

In fact, it’s possible that we could open 16 year olds up to parental abuse, co-ercion, peer to peer bullying etc... by actually giving them this responsibility. Whatever side of brexit you fall, I think it’s important to note and be concerned about that.

Your opinion on voting at 16 will probably depend at least partly on whether you are a parent and, if so, what sort of teenagers you have.

(I agree with the rest of your post prior to this bit by the way!)

I've two boys (14 & 17) - both are pretty switched on & generally good boys (apart from usual teenage shit...).

My eldest is v interested in all the political goings on and is desperate to be old enough to vote (he'd vote leave fwiw, and so would his girlfriend)

He turned 14 just before the EU ref and got caught up in it all as it was a big thing at school which is great - he even got up at 4 to watch the last of the results coming through & was late for school so he could see David Cameron's speech!)
Then there was Trump, then TM's disaster (& JC's hero worship), then everything since.

I think his generation have been lucky in a way to have been in their formative years during such a politically massive period as he's definitely far, far more interested & engaged in politics than I ever was.

But! He was also all about the memes and the hilarity of disruption (as are many teens) - so would just have likely have voted for Corbyn or Trump 'for the bantz' rather than making a heartfelt, somber choice.

So (after my tangential ramble...!) I think you're right.

If you've got kids who are very sensible & mature & recognise the gravity of consequence of their vote then you'll obvs be ok with 16 yr olds voting.
But I do think that in all honesty, the majority of 16 yr olds are most probably more like mine - and I wouldn't have trusted him an inch 😳
Now that he's nearly 18 he's grown up a hell of a lot in just the last few months & I'd absolutely trust him to be serious now & make an informed choice.

Absolutely not. It's a good argument for doing it carefully though!

Yep!
No disagreement from me here!!

In fact, it’s possible that we could open 16 year olds up to parental abuse, co-ercion, peer to peer bullying etc... by actually giving them this responsibility. Whatever side of brexit you fall, I think it’s important to note and be concerned about that.

YY to this.

Students don't pay income tax

They do if they earn enough.

Sorry Continuity - I meant council tax for students

My mistake 😳

Oops sorry

Both my boys....my girl has no interest in any of it so although she would vote out of duty im not sure what she would base her vote on if you see what i mean

Dusty do you agree with a longer period of scrutiny in the HoP then? To ensure that the bill has no badly written clauses with unintended consequences?

(This is intended as a genuine non-partisan question btw, because neither side should want bad legislation with unintended consequences on the books).

For once I'm not just trolling randomly, btw. I know we have differences on Brexit which will never be resolve and which are not really worth discussing.

But there are some more interesting questions about how politics is done and in particular about how government legislation is scrutinised where we might find common ground.

Bear in mind that even if it seems unlikely right now it's not impossible that in future it could be a Corbyn or MacDonnell led coalition using the same tactics to rush bad law onto the statute book.