Brexit Arms pop up pops up again!

[time4chocolate]

Quite coincidentally I too have been in negotiations today regarding the pubs licence and it's good news here as well, a deal has been agreed!!

There were no amendments or legal objections put forward so a shiny new licence has been issued and normal service can be resumed

Same rules apply.

Now let's hope Saturday's proceedings can go ahead without the usual dicking around and that what has been nigh on impossible during the last 3 years, a majority, can be achieved otherwise I feel we are off to hell in a handcart!

First drink is on the house 🍻🍷🍻🍷Cheers

Ben Bradley:
"I really hope that the man who brought us the ever popular Poll Tax and the hugely successful Fixed Term Parliaments Act hasn't just royally fucked this whole thing up too"

Letwin's greatest hits.

Does it?

Bertrand Yes it does, it has to follow legislative procedure.

As long as we all vote LibDem we'll be fine Limited

Howabout blimey, so much potential irony in so little time😂

Mark Carney says the deal will boost the global economy and also thinks the UK will cope well outside the EU.

Let's hope it passes!

What happens if no-one else does or and I know this is controversial on here , what happens if they lie to you ?
The same thing you do as you would if your MEP lies to you, you dont vote for them again. Or you could stand for election yourself. Or you could accept that no one else cares about whatever issue you advocate.

Research from The Economist - Boris Johnson’s deal will lower income per person by 6.4%, compared to being within the EU. Theresa May’s would have lowered it by 4.9%

So the remainers on this thread are now claiming that we cant leave the EU because the UK might vote in a future parliament that will change a law remainers wont like.

This is what democracy looks like.

So I am very sorry but I can’t join you in collective clenching
Remainers must have very pert bottoms with all that clenching. 😶

“ So the remainers on this thread are now claiming that we cant leave the EU because the UK might vote in a future parliament that will change a law remainers wont like. ”
Well, that’s not what I’m saying. I am saying this is a worse deal than the May deal because hers enshrined some legislation that was very beneficial for ordinary British people, and this one doesn’t. I don’t think the protection of worker’s rights is something only remainers care about, is it?

I’ll always be a remainer.

So the remainers on this thread are now claiming that we cant leave the EU because the UK might vote in a future parliament that will change a law remainers wont like.

So it seems 🤷🏻‍♀️
Some people just don't like the idea that not everyone is 'just like them'

I am saying this is a worse deal than the May deal because hers enshrined some legislation that was very beneficial for ordinary British people
Bertrand, what is to stop a future UK government enshrining that in law? Or do you not like democracy? I dont get how you can say the deal is worse just because you dont like democracy.

Bunch Mark Carney says the deal will boost the global economy and also thinks the UK will cope well outside the EU.

He said the UK "will cope", not "will cope well". See what a difference that makes to the meaning? This is the context he gave: "This is the deepest, most integrated economic relationship in the world between countries. There is going to be a substantial change to the level of integration,” he said. “Transition is better than jumping.”

Interesting spin, Bunch, but did you just pounce on the word 'cope', add an adverb and hope no-one would notice?

Here's a bit more of what he actually said: "Mark Carney said the deal "takes away the tail risk of a disorderly Brexit".

However the governor warned that the deal might not boost the economy to the same extent as the deal put forward by Boris Johnson's predecessor, Theresa May.

In other words, he's welcoming the deal as an alternative to the cliff edge of no deal and making clear that it's worse than TM's proposed deal.

Oh, and it seems like only yesterday that Rees-Mogg was calling Carney an 'enemy of Brexit' and accusing him of being 'consistently wrong'. But now Carney's said 'UK will cope', Leavers suddenly think he's worth listening to.

I actually supported TM’s WA. Do an AS if you want to, but I only started posting anti-Brexit comments once Johnson became PM and it became clear he was pushing for a hard Brexit. We have repeatedly been told that our current rights will remain protected. This WA is a significant change of direction which I don’t agree with.

I’m derailing but the problem that we have with politics at the moment is that we both expect and accept that politicians will lie to us. Take the yellowhammer release for example, it was widely reported in the press that the title of the document was changed from base case to reasonable worst case prior to public release, but this isn’t investigated and no one seems to care. Can you imagine what would happen to your surgeon, for example, if it was reported that he presented likely complications of a particular surgery to be worst case instead of base case? He would be up before the GMC.

IMO we would need much stricter regulation on who can become an MP in the first place, ie what constitutes a conflict of interest (looking at you JRM) and an extension of misconduct in a public office, ie mislead the public once and you should face scrutiny, before I would trust any Government declaration/manifesto

Walking, there Is no accounting for others peoples education and interests.
Perhaps said poster has no interest in the UK or history and really does believe the UK desperately needs the eu to rigoursly keep us in line with basic human rights.

Bertrand corybn, the darling of the left said workers rights were ruined after cheap ee labour flooded the market and ruined it, particularly construction... I don't know how you square that badge of shite extreme left you see to wear with pride over comrade Corbyns loathing of the eu??

Actually please don't answer, I'm sure you won't anyway, you like to ask questions not answer them
. I have zero interest in the answer.

I don’t see how history is at all relevant. What I do believe is that the MP’s who are pushing for a hard Brexit are doing so for one reason - deregulation, because they and their friends have a vested interest in deregulation. So whilst leave-voters may have a laudable reason for voting leave, it doesn’t particularly matter so much as they are not the ones in power so they don’t get to make decisions. This WA paves the way for deregulation. Yes we can vote these people out, but that takes time and much damage could be done in the interim. And that’s assuming any further governments we vote in actually goes on to do what we voted for.

So for me it comes down to this, do you honestly believe that Johnson and JRM et al have laudable reasons for pursuing a hard Brexit?

What I do believe is that the MP’s who are pushing for a hard Brexit are doing so for one reason - deregulation
Simple solution democracy. A general election.

It isn’t simple though, it is incredibly complex. You are over stating the power we have as individuals in our representative democracy. If Parliament decided to revoke A50 tomorrow what power do you have to stop this?

People generally don’t vote for a party due to a single policy, ie, if you polled everyone who voted Tory in the last 10 years to ask if they supported benefit cuts for disabled people I assume the majority would say no, but they voted Tory anyway and the cuts happened in any event.

Take for example deregulation of food standards and the privatisation of the NHS. IMO it plays out as the below:

Government to Daily Mail General Trust: US are insisting we take their chlorinated chicken and privatise some NHS services to get the trade deal over the line. Public would need to make contributions for some elective surgeries. We have identified elective joint replacement as a good starting point and could really use your support on this.

Owner of DMGT: Invests in US agricultural and healthcare companies and then runs the following stories on chicken:

A dailymail study shows 90% of the chicken on sale in our supermarkets contains harmful bacteria that could KILL you.
I almost died of salmonella poisoning from unsafe chicken (daily mail sad face).
British people are overpaying for chicken: US people pay x% less

On NHS:
Data shows that 90% of patients who had joint replacement surgery in last 5 years had a BMI of 30 or more.
Joint replacement surgery took up X amount of NHS budget in last 3 years, meanwhile people with Cancer lose out.
X% of NHS trusts are failing to meet budget requirements, this is affecting patient safety, PHE warn.

Before you know it, the average daily mail reader is saying this: “what’s so bad about chlorinated chicken? It is safer and cheaper. And people don’t have to buy it if they don’t want to, i’m sure Waitrose aren’t going to suddenly stop selling their organic corn fed chickens, they can just buy them like I do.” And “why should us thin people be penalised for the choices of obese people, they are a drain on the NHS and it’s only right they should contribute. I don’t know why everyone doesn’t have BUPA anyway, they were excellent with my FIL’s knee replacement” etc etc.

Meanwhile, average Mumsnet Tory voter is saying this, “I’m not saying i support all of their policies, but for our family they make the most economic sense and I’m going to obviously vote for what is best for us.”

Until we have much stricter regulation on who can become an MP in the first place (ie no one who has any interests/family interests in investments as they are open to creating policy for financial gain) and stronger punishments for MPs who mislead the public (ie jail time for telling us 5 weeks is necessary to prepare for Queens speech when they have just done it in a few days) then we can’t trust that MPs actually have our best interests at heart or that they will go ahead and implement any of the policies in their manifestos.

Morning ! No grog for me last night as need to be bright eyed and bushy tailed for work today

So the remainers on this thread are now claiming that we cant leave the EU because the UK might vote in a future parliament that will change a law remainers wont like

Not at all, I was just pointing out that we mere mortals , don't have the ability to vote on everything that comes through Parliament. You vote for an MP of whichever political bent you believe best represents your views overall, given their manifesto promises. If they win, all you can do is hope that they will vote in a way that mirrors your views. Regardless of whether they do or not, they remain in the job for 5 years, until the next GE, which is your next opportunity to vote. 5 years is a long time in politics, mind you, 5 hours is a long time in politics at the moment !

Whilst my preferred option is always going to be remain, a WA, that has legislation to protect the ordinary person, with a decent transition period to allow for negotiations, would be a close second.

In some ways I agree with DustyDiamond , we do need to move forwards. I prefer the idea of stopping Brexit and then moving forwards, but I understand that is as likely as being asked to be a body double for Gigi Hadid

If Parliament decided to revoke A50 tomorrow what power do you have to stop this?

This is exactly the point we've been making, which you appear to be blind to.

If this Parliament decided to revoke A50 tomorrow we could not stop it, you are correct.

However, over 80% of the current Parliament were standing for election on assurances that they would respect & enact the ref. Anti-Brexit parties did not do well in 2017.

So, should this Parliament revoke, come the next election it is down to the electorate to decide if they are ok with this & to vote accordingly

If people aren't that bothered then the current crop will likely retain their seats - if people are pissed off then they'll vote against them.

This is the same for all things, not just Brexit-related.

Simply wringing hands and hoping the EU will offer protection against our own govt is a pathetic & unhealthy way of life
If voters want something different then they need to vote for something different

For the first time in a long time our MPs will have to become properly accountable for their policy positions & actions - no more hiding behind "the bad EU! - won't let us do xyz!", and similarly no pretending that "the benevolent EU! is the only reason we have any rights & protections!"!.

Mark Carney said the BJ deal was better for the economy than no deal. He didn’t say it was better for the economy than remain. He also said the TM deal would’ve been better.

This deal today is just the first step. BJ has tried to leave every possibility open in the PD (including no deal for the disaster capitalists), to try to get MPs to vote for it. The uncertainty about the final arrangement will go on for YEARS, which will be very BAD for the economy, business, jobs, our individual prosperity.