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Brexit

Westministenders: Slow News Fake News

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2019 18:36

Things have been slow whilst we are in proroguation, ahead of next weeks Queen's Speech and the EU summit.

We've been in full spin mode, from the likes of the far right and an unnamed source at No.10.

People seem to be waking up to the reality that its highly unlikely we will get a deal now, unless something significant. And No.10 has worked out the NI problem. FINALLY.

Anyway, if you have a little time this week and you are interested in the history of where technology change and fake news meet and how where we are now is merely things repeating themselves, Ian Hislop's Fake News: A True History, is essential viewing.
www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m00095hv/ian-hislops-fake-news-a-true-history

I really feel strongly this is stuff that should be being taught in schools somehow as its what protects us from extremism.

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prettybird · 10/10/2019 21:38

Bellini - I'm pretty sure that Mother was referring to the even older Union with Scotland, which is also something that Conservative and Unionist Party is not exactly cherishing. Hmm quite apart from its clusterfuck in the way that it's dealing with the GFA and the way that it cosied up to the DUP Angry

thecatfromjapan · 10/10/2019 21:39

It'll never happen, BigChoc.

On the plus side, I qualify for an Irish passport ... which I haven't applied for but ...

thecatfromjapan · 10/10/2019 21:41

It'll never happen - referred you City state.

NI only backstop will seriously piss off the unionists in Ireland.

(And Scotland.)

Motheroffourdragons · 10/10/2019 21:46

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BigChocFrenzy · 10/10/2019 21:52

TheCat I'd love a London passport < dreams ... >

thecatfromjapan · 10/10/2019 21:53

By the way, 54321, I hope you don't get the banhammer.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/10/2019 21:54

Oh well, I have to get up early.
I'll check in at lunchtime to see how Breakfast WIth Barnier went

Motheroffourdragons · 10/10/2019 21:55

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thecatfromjapan · 10/10/2019 21:56

Me too, BigChoc.

But, to be fair, big areas of England (cities, the Cotswolds,) didn't vote for this.
It just makes it all thoroughly crazy.

And there are declining numbers for it.

Yet along we go. ☹️

Motheroffourdragons · 10/10/2019 21:59

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prettybird · 10/10/2019 22:03

Motheroffourdragons - you've got first dibs on the spare bedroom if it's to vote in Indyref2 Smile

Ds' room (which also has a good sofa bed) is also free while he's away at Uni Grin (although dh might be loath to give up "his" study Wink)

Motheroffourdragons · 10/10/2019 22:06

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HateIsNotGood · 10/10/2019 22:07

Does anyone know how Gibraltar stands? I couldn't find much in my lazy google search, except confirmation that Gib isn't being thought about much in the current Brexit 'debate'.

www.ft.com/content/3fd753ae-e8f9-11e9-a240-3b065ef5fc55

BigChocFrenzy · 10/10/2019 22:09

I've read the "breakthrough" if it survives, is based on proposals by this guy, Raoul Ruparel:

(published 8.10)

He describes the figleaf backstop, which is complicated.
There is also a fallback solution, if this doesn't work, of NI being a joint UK-EU Customs territory (as Iirish Times reported earlier)

Raoul Ruparel: A Brexit deal is still possible: Here’s how

https://www.politico.eu/article/opinion-a-brexit-deal-is-still-possible-heres-how-theresa-may-boris-johnson-ireland-customs-backstop-european-union-negotiations/amp/?

A member of Theresa May's negotiating team sets out what each side would need to give in order to get to an agreement.

thecatfromjapan · 10/10/2019 22:10

You don't, Mother.

Tired you may be, but you make perfect sense to me.

ListeningQuietly · 10/10/2019 22:13

Bristol, York, Cambridge, Oxford, Brighton, Winchester etc etc
LOTS of cities in England voted remain
those people will not appreciate being ignored by the Tories

BigChocFrenzy · 10/10/2019 22:18

Hate Under May's WA, I think Gibraltar would have shared the transition period with the UK, i.e. all stays the same.

However, how the border with Spain would be treated after transition finishes would depend on the kind of future EU-UK trade deal negotiated
i.e. a Canada-type could see a hard border back, whereas a Norway-type wouldn't

imo, it would be the same for this or any other WA - since it is an Exit Deal only:
Gib Ok in transition, but afterwards depends on how close the Uk wants to stay with the EU

Of course, the UK could try to negotiate a specific deal for Gib, whatever trade deal the govt chooses,
but that depends on Spain seeing it as being in their interests too - they might do.

Motheroffourdragons · 10/10/2019 22:19

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prettybird · 10/10/2019 22:47

Got it wrong Blush - Caroline Flint uttered her drivel on R4 yesterday Angry - not this morning Blush

Got my dates mixed up when I saw it Blush

BigChocFrenzy · 10/10/2019 22:55

Tony Connelly@tconnellyRTE

3/ All sides are coy about what the new proposals contain, except that Varadkar and Johnson discussed customs, consent and post-Brexit bilateral relations,

but if this can be done relatively quickly it must raise suspicions that it is in the realm of an off-the-shelf deal

< The only shelf is in Barnier's safe, so NI backstop with minor tweaks ? >

prettybird · 10/10/2019 23:18

The joint statement said "They could see a pathway to a possible deal"

• could (conditional)
• see (not necessarily the same thing or even if it's close)
• pathway (ie a route towards, not yet there yet)
• possible (another conditional)

As the Scots so expressively say, "Aye Right" HmmHmmHmm

Icantreachthepretzels · 10/10/2019 23:21

Bristol, York, Cambridge, Oxford, Brighton, Winchester etc etc
LOTS of cities in England voted remain

Plus some of the northern biggies. Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester and Newcastle all voted remain.

TatianaLarina · 10/10/2019 23:40

I can see a stairway to heaven. I just can’t walk it.

RedToothBrush · 10/10/2019 23:49

Peter Foster@pmdfoster
So quick thoughts on @BorisJohnson @LeoVaradkar pow-wow and what we know/don't know. /1 Thread

First thing is that something definitely happening. This is not just blame-game posturing.

Asked a very trusted source tonight (who would know) what the outline was and they replied "sorry, can't" or words to that effect.

When top people clam up, that means one thing... /2

There is finally something substantive to protect....a proposal that might be workable and no-one wants derailing with leaks.

In #Brexit the sound of silence is always the sound of deals being done - or of a potential to be done. /3

I note that even the peerless @tconnellyRTE doesn't have a clear read - QED. /4

Tony Connelly@tconnellyrte
Choreography for Barclay-Barnier meeting in Brussels:

Breakfast mtg at 9am CET, probably running till 10.30. Michel Barnier then briefs member states via coreper EU Ambassadors' meeting

2/ Barnier is expected to receive new proposals from the Brexit Secretary Steve Barclay, based on the understanding reached by Johnson and Varadkar in Wirral, and will decide, based on the feedback from member states, if they form the basis of a deepening of the negotations

3/ All sides are coy about what the new proposals contain, except that Varadkar and Johnson discussed customs, consent and post-Brexit bilateral relations, but if this can be done relatively quickly it must raise suspicions that it is in the realm of an off-the-shelf deal

4/ In other words, something that brings us closer to the Joint Report and NI-only backstop; or perhaps something of the Customs Partnership idea, ie NI remains in the UK customs territory but it applies the EU's tariffs and customs rules

5/ We don't know just yet. The Commission is insisting its red lines haven't changed, Varadkar says there can be no customs border on the island of Ireland. Boris Johnson has made NI leaving the Customs Union a fundamental principle.

6/ So somewhere within that crowded niche there must be the germ of something. It may well be that by linking customs and consent, in the classic negotiating ploy, both sides can find some room for manoeuvre. The Commission was fully briefed by Ireland ahead of the Wirral meeting

7/ One source tonight suggested everyone keep calm and not get trigger happy. Let's see tomorrow.

Peter Foster@pmdfoster
There's a couple of other intriguing things we know - since rest is speculation.

The Irish seemed more chipper, more willing to make a big announcement than the British side.

As @Mij_Europe noted, more caution../5

Mujtaba Rahman @mij_europe
So UK officials I've spoken to a bit more downbeat than readout from Irish times. 1/ Caution weariness on briefs of a 3h private meet between @BorisJohnson and @LeoVaradkar. 2/ Absolutely clear that UK position - that its customs territory remains intact - remains. Don't see a Commons majority otherwise. 3/ Objective is to tee up a real negotiation between @MichelBarnier & @SteveBarclay tomorrow. UK side continues to believe that @EU_Commission holds the key. "If they want to make it work they will." So both sides still holding to core principles ENDS

Peter Foster@pmdfoster
Which might suggest that @BorisJohnson nervous that whatever concession has been made risks alienating @duponline or his backbenchers.

Brexit negs are a litany of UK PMs over-promising, under-delivering...and getting slaughtered for it when they get back home. /6

So worth remembering that whatever Johnson gets in Brussels, if he gets a deal, has to go through UK Parliament.

Lots of talk of Labour MPs at the ready - not my bailiwick - but a deal opens door to hard 'Tory' #Brexit can it get the numbers? /7

So what might the 'breakthrough' be?

Well at this everyone is speculating but we know it needs to bridge gaps primarily on
a) 'consent' - so how NI has 'say' in deal b) customs. /8

On the 'consent' party worth noting that the EU is saying this is the more easily fixable area.

So the DUP veto needs to 'go'...but whatever replaces it has to fly, since @BorisJohnson needs DUP on board for numbers in Westminster. /9

If it is based around the 'double majority' principle and 'parity of esteem' ideas laid out by @BrunoBrussels this week that might be a big ask for DUP.

From veto before end of transition period; to 'no veto' effectively. Big political face loss /10

Bruno Waterfield @brunobrussels
NEW EU ready to make a major concession on consent by allowing a double majority in the NI assembly to leave new Irish backstop after (as yet) unspecified number of years

t.co/BtBTS1TxaR
DUP and Eurosceptics reject Brexit offer on Irish backstop
‘Double majority means we can never leave’

Peter Foster@pmdfoster
So consent, while less obvioulsy intractable than customs, still has chance to be tricky...

So what about customs? Well, a logical landing zone was identified by @RaoulRuparel recently - the revival for the May 'dual tariff' scheme for NI only. /11

This is where @denisstaunton lands up for Irish Times... but it is not straight forward, even if it would seem to fit the 'spirit' of the Good Friday Agreement by allowing both sides to live in parallel realities effectively. /12

t.co/Fg4HD3yzgN
Customs border in Irish Sea emerges as the only basis of a Brexit deal
EU could accept a scaled-down version of customs partnership proposed by May

Peter Foster@pmdfoster
^I did some thoughts on the issues here, which @RaoulRuparel acknowledged as sound/real...but not with standing not insurmountable. See @SamuelMarcLowe
threads for more. /13^

thread reader thread

The obvious issues are

a) leakage over border for products that had rebate

b) unfair competition where NI biz gets 'subsidy' against ROI competitors. /14

Also, per UK proposal, at the moment the UK says, for E-W broder it wont use EU processes, but hasn't yet stood up workable/compliant alternative...that needs to be addressed too. /15

But COULD the EU accept leakage/impurity as the price of a deal IF it was confined to Northern Ireland (1.8m people) and so limited. That in turns depends on GB-NI border functioning. /16

Well, EU dips from major member states are not totally prescriptive on this. The Ruparel piece was not laughed out of bed. One senior EU dip said to me that "there are two 'pure solutions', we know, but neither work. The question is how much impurity we can live with'. /17

So maybe it is doable - but all that is caveated by fact that EU absolutely HATED this scheme before (but was presented for all-UK) and the Commission/institutions may well be harder over than the Member States. /18

The last thing is timing. @LeoVaradkar seemed to be talking about a very quick deal (for next week) which points to something pretty of the shelf....which makes me doubt NCP-NI ideas above...but maybe it can be inserted into WA and agreed? /19

So that would be a legally binding commitment, but you'd still need some kind of fall back if it all went' pear-shaped or wasn't ready by transition end in 2020. And the more UK diverged, better the systems would need to be. /20

So that's it - lots of uncertainty, but clearly - for the first time in the Johnson tenure - a sense that there is something to serously talk about. We'll see. If it goes belly-up, both sides can go back to blamegame/elction strategies I suppose. Hope not. ENDS

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RedToothBrush · 10/10/2019 23:52

Short version : something defo happening. This is action not total hot air as usual.

I do find it curious to go to the wirral.

It's like they wanted to meet away from people gossiping about what went on.

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