Boris’s Irish solution - is it workable?

[elprup]

It seems like it could be a viable solution to me, although I’ll admit that I’m by no means an expert on the subject. What do you think?

It means, angel84, that you can educate someone else.

Or try to anyhow!

Oh CSharp, can you really not understand? Did the Normans shoot us in the face for saying our names in our own language? Or admit murdering innocent Irish people in our lifetime?

Apologies if the last sentence is presumptuous, I don't know your age.

The audience is not the EU but leave voters

This. The BJ/Cummings government is not interested in working with the EU to find a practical solution. They are only interested in electioneering.

TM was a dreadful PM and made huge mistakes with her "red lines" but I think, at least in the last few months, she did try to negotiate a compromise solution. BJ refused to vote for it of course.

As much as I dislike him I do agree with the point he made which is the Irish need to accept something needs to change. The status quo cannot remain if we come out.

The arrogance of that statement is off the scale. The people on the island of Ireland have done a fantastic job since the Good Friday agreement, they have allowed the murderers of their relatives out of prison early to obtain the fragile peace that currently exists.

On the other side of the border, well what sovereign nation likes to be told by another what to do? Especially a previous occupier?

France was once in charge of England, perhaps BJ would like to pass through a border between No 10 and Westminster?

Sash, you are exactly right. What had happened in NI was a triumph of democracy, forgiveness and reason, built on new institutions and real political change - eg the Irish changed their constitution, the RUC replaced by the PSNI, Council of the Islands. All these things and many more operated to accommodate two legitimate national identities.
It was a huge undertaking. It has been successful but not without flaws, such as the suspension of stormont.
It is not to be fucked with like this by people who do not appear to understand the enormous value of peace, security and actual lives saved by the absence of terror.
The ludicrous idea that this great,progressive but still precarious set of carefully wrought arrangements should be secondary to some barely thought through, reactive, ever changing idea of Brexit is a stupid, ignorant, disgraceful and dangerous idea. The Good Friday Agreement made me cry with joy. It was a fantastic achievement, up there with democracy in Spain after Franco. Sadly I just don't think enough people know how important it is.

Legoroses

Thank you.

I am no expert on Irish history but I have tried to keep up with the news over the years. The Patrick Kielty programme was interesting and, well scary.

Stephen Kelly of Manufacturing NI said yesterday that "Frankly the proposals are worse than No Deal for Northern Ireland businesses".

I think the reasoning is that the Johnson proposal loads the cost of what Northern Ireland business interests are calling "costly and intrusive" technology onto businesses (mostly small businesses). While the cost of no deal is also high, the infrastructural cost would mostly be borne by government. Either way, businesses are going to have to submit to checks and employ customs agents, but in the Johnson proposal they are also going to have to fund expensive technology (that doesn't even exit yet).

Reading some of the stuff Johnson is coming out with about this. It's like he's talking about a completely different proposal to what he has put forward and that the reactions he has been getting are completely different to the reality.

It's really obvious that he's playing to leave electorate. He is setting the scene so the EU appear to be the ones forcing a no deal when he's been so compromising and has presented an amazing proposal that nobody reasonable would object to. It's all about getting the BXP voters back.

This is Explore The Border from the Irish Times today... it's an interactive map of all border crossings, and you can click on each one for more info about it, including its 'story' during the Troubles.

www.irishtimes.com/news/world/brexit/borderlands/the-border

The problem with sorting Brexit is that the people making the border decisions are not the ones having to live directly with the consequences. I imagine things would be much different if they were

He is setting the scene so the EU appear to be the ones forcing a no deal when he's been so compromising and has presented an amazing proposal that nobody reasonable would object to. It's all about getting the BXP voters back

Correct. However, I think any form of WA will be rejected by opposition who want Brexit not to happen at all. They seem not to realize that without an agreed WA the chances of no deal increase?

He can set the scene all he likes. I know who I would blame fir No Deal. It isn't the EU. It's No Dealers who have poisoned the political landscape by making that insanity sound like a viable option.

However, I think any form of WA will be rejected by opposition who want Brexit not to happen at all.

The reason the WA did not pass was because of tory MPs, who support brexit, voted against it. If they had voted for it, the UK would be out by now.

It was Tory Brexiters who voted down the WA. Most Tory MPs are remainers but nevertheless most of them voted for the WA every single time it was presented to the HoC.

The reason that the WA didn't pass, and that the U.K. isn't already out of the EU, is that some Tory MPs including the current prime minister and the current leader of the HoC voted against it.

He is setting the scene so the EU appear to be the ones forcing a no deal

I don't agree with this, the eu just have to either grant or offer an extension. No deal is not the issue here, it's the deal or extend.

@Bluntness100 - I don't agree with this, the eu just have to either grant or offer an extension. No deal is not the issue here, it's the deal or extend.

The EU won't offer an extension. However, they will grant one if asked. That's pretty much a given. I'm assuming the no deal he's aiming for is after the extension ends.

Picture this:

Boris the Brave is the statesman-like visionary who has come up with the perfect solution to the problem that has defeated all who came before him. The EU are completely inflexible and too stupid to see how it does everything they want.

The dastardly parliament has forced an extension. Plucky Boris continues to put trojan effort (reference to the Greek classics here) into bringing the EU around to his amazing compromise, but they are just meanies who are trying to keep the UK shackled to the jackboot of EU imperialist oppression (slight mixing of metaphors there but at least it's not Greek mytological allusions).

GE happens. The tories win a majority because the electorate know he's done his best and "there's just no talking to some people" (EU). If the EU can't see how far the UK have moved on this, let's just get on with making Britain great again (note - Britain, not UK, as NI is screwed). Despite further compromises (Boris offers to print the document on yellow paper), no deal can be agreed. Off trots the UK into the no deal, Brexity sunset and they all live happily ever after, while the dastardly (I do love that word) EU get their comeuppance.

The End.

The reason the WA did not pass was because of tory MPs, who support brexit, voted against it. If they had voted for it, the UK would be out by now

Not sure it can be allocated entirely to Conservatives. Labour almost unanimously voted against WA three times:

First vote only 3 labour MPs supported the WA

Second vote only 4 labour MPs supported WA

Third vote only 6 labour MPs supported WA

LibDems, SNP, Plaid, DUP and Greens voted against the WA every time

Not sure it can be allocated entirely to Conservatives.

WA was negotiated by the government. Tories, with C&S with DUP had a majority. No votes were needed from elsewhere provided all member of the government voted for the agreement negotiated by the government.

Opposition tend, as is hinted in the name, to oppose the government.

MysteryTripAgain

Labour voted against the PD, not the WA. A PD that was 'Norway+' would have meant the WA and PD would have passed the HoC. Theresa May's obsession with ending free movement of people is pretty much the root cause of all our current travails

@whyamidoingthis

But what happens after “the end”
It is going to be pretty shit for a lot of people and the U.K. will still need a trade deal and will really need to extend the mini deals that do things like keeping planes flying.
So Johnson can win a great majority (or not) and all the hedge funds can make billions but reality is still there.

He will probably sell out the unnecessary DUP- if you can be bought you can be sold. Leave NI in the single market and customs union to get a free trade agreement with the U.K. and the US.
GB will suffer terribly and Scotland will go for independence but no one in Europe will care any more.

@Inniu - it will be the land of unicorns, milk and honey. Any problems will be some one else's fault

If people just believe, and get behind Boris the Bountiful, all will be fiiiiiiine.

I agree with you completely. But that's not the rhetoric he's selling.

Surely if any solution is workable that is predominantly a question for all the islanders on the island of Ireland?

The republic have said it isn't workable. End of.

I was just listening to R4 news- I don't get why the focus in media and social media is all about the evil EUs response. It's all about Junker and Verhofstadt. Why isn't the predominant focus on Ireland's position? Why isn't it all Varadkar or Coveney or DUP or Sinn Fein.

On the rare occasions when Gibraltar features - it's Spain says this, Spain says that.

When the border features - it's not Ireland says this,Ireland says that but the EU.

When the border features - it's not Ireland says this,Ireland says that but the EU.

Because Boris the Bufoon and the British media think Ireland doesn't count. Ireland is just a jumped-up former colony getting notions. The UK will only deal with the grown-up countries.

It's post-colonial arrogance.

Because the great thing about being a small country in the EU is you don’t have to say these things yourself you get an organization of 500 million people to say it for you.

Less likely to be pushed around by the neighborhood bully that way.

lonelyplanetmum

To be fair, the A50 negotiations are conducted between the EU and UK, so it's actually reasonable that the EU's response is given prominence in this case.

(It's also true that the EU will not agree to something that Ireland would object to, so we get both responses reported, of course).