Boris’s Irish solution - is it workable?

[elprup]

It seems like it could be a viable solution to me, although I’ll admit that I’m by no means an expert on the subject. What do you think?

The problem is that the people who are going to be faced with crossing a border to get to work, see their friends and family, visit a doctor, take their animals to market, transport their milk ... are not in favour of Brexit and will resoundingly reject Johnson's border proposal.

Most people will reject it peacefully, but it only takes a small number of dissidents to start removing infrastructure and targeting contractors, and then you'll need police to protect those installations and those workers, and then (when the police get targeted) the army too.

Can you see where this is going? There is a thread on twitter this morning about people's memories of the Troubles:

"Halloween 1993. UFF entered Rising Sun Bar & shouted “Trick or Treat” before opening fire. 7 people died that night, 1 later.
^On the monday a school bus pulled up by ours with a sign in the window:
“Trick or Treat. 7-0”
Kids, gloating about mass murder.
We can’t go back to that.^"

"One of my earliest memories is of the aftermath of the Narrow Water bomb and hearing helicopters flying everywhere, shortly after that I watched my Dad give his car keys to an IRA man who was pointing a gun at my Mum, presumably so they could use his car to move weapons^"

"^My Mum taught at one of the military primary schools and was issued, like all the civilian staff, a mirror on a stick to check under her car every morning, trip to the shops... - any time she hadn't parked at the school (which was inside the fence). The GFA is vital."

but WTO have told both Ireland and UK they will no insist on hard borders.

Oh, I didn’t know that. That’s good news!

The border belt they're proposing is all in remain voting areas of NI too.

And that is no coincidence.

I completely accept the viewpoint that a majority voted Leave and so the UK should leave the EU. I don't like it but I fully accept it. Not the first time I've voted for the losing side in an election, I'll get over it.

I fundamentally disagree that it's ok to Leave in any way that even slightly jeopardises the GFA. It's not ok to just decide my daughter should grow up in a civil war the same way her father did, or that we should have to choose to uproot our family to avoid that. We live in the UK, in peace. I don't think expecting the government to do its utmost to ensure that continues is such a big ask. Indeed I'd say it's the bare minimum of respectability.

WTO have told both Ireland and UK they will no insist on hard borders.

It would be good news if it weren't complete nonsense.

@MysteryTripAgain - Ireland were a signatory to Article 50 in 2009. So they were aware that any EU member, including UK, could leave without a deal.

Even the BIC (British Irish Council), that was formed in 1998 to safeguard the GFA, have overlooked the implications of Article 50.

I think it's time you asked for an updated 50 cent army handbook. You keep peddling the same, irrelevant nonsense in an attempt to distract from the main issues. Of course any member can leave without a deal. However, any state who has signed an international peace treaty should consider the implications of their actions in other arenas on the that treaty. Any country with integrity would not leave in a way that would contravene a treaty they signed.

EU were not party to the GFA. However, the wording of GFA makes reference to EU policies and how both North and South are required to take into account changes in EU policies and any effect they may have on the GFA.

Ireland and the UK are party to the treaty. There are references to EU policies in the GFA. Once it became apparent the UK was not willing to act with integrity and uphold the GFA, the BIC addressed the issue. Prior to that, the UK had stated they intended honouring the GFA.

Bear in mind the *MysteryTripAgain did not know who Simon Coveney was quite recently, additionally, they did not know that the Irish and NI attorney generals were different people.

The problem is the arrogance of the uk government (and a significant portion of the population) in deciding that some parts of the uk are less important and can be sacrificed for their own gain.

A thousand times this.

And this could be avoided by having the soft Brexit that was mooted at the time of the referendum. No one bar extremists was advocating no deal then. But, here we are...

The problem is the arrogance of the uk government (and a significant portion of the population) in deciding that some parts of the uk are less important and can be sacrificed for their own gain

Happens all over the World. It is the risk smaller countries take when they join the same club as countries whose population is much larger then their own.

Even within Countries there are divisions. View held by many in England is; London, South East and South West is that England has an invisible border too. It is a line between the Bristol Channel and the Wash. If you work and live below the line you are superior in all ways to those who live above the line.

Friend who is from Ireland says the similar. They are not from Dublin and are frowned on by those who are.

Russia is a two place Country. Moscow and the rest.

So the Irish just need to accept that peace is an acceptable price to pay for delivering Brexit and keeping the Tory party in power

Don't be so emotive. I clearly never said that. Nor did I intimate I remotely thought that, And I've also stated I'm a remainer. I don't agree with this shit either. But the bottom line is the country voted out so something needs to change, there is simply no way round the fact. I'd also remind you of the fact the Dublin court found that the back stop did not threaten peace.

If you have a solution then put it on a government petition and hopefully it gets enough votes to be debated in parliament.

Attacking people on line for something they also don't agree with is pointless.

@elprup - The thing is, if we are leaving on October 31st (and that’s a big if), then it comes down to this plan or a hard border (through no deal). The second option is much worse!

That's very debatable. No deal may be worse for the UK but this plan is quite likely worse for Ireland and probably NI in the medium to long term.

Once it became apparent the UK was not willing to act with integrity and uphold the GFA, the BIC addressed the issue. Prior to that, the UK had stated they intended honouring the GFA

I can't find anything on the BIC website to support that? Annual reports, publications of meetings, etc. There is nothing there. Just another dreamed up government department that did little. Every time there was a meeting it was held in different places. Just a day out it looks to have been.

I'd also I'd also remind you of the fact the Dublin court found that the back stop did not threaten peace.

Obviously the backstop did not threaten peace. That's what its for!

Note, btw, that Brexiters know that Ireland creates an existential thread for Brexit. They will blather and attempt to derail any discussions of this with long content-free or flat-out inaccurate posts in order to shut down the conversation and, in particular, to prevent Northern Irish and border communities' voices being heard.

@MysteryTripAgain - UK signed GFA in 1998 along with Ireland. However, they both signed Article 50 in 2009 that includes provision for no deal

It's called integrity. Ireland displayed it when deciding not to sign up to Schengen, despite wanting to, as the UK were not joining it. Ireland felt that the GFA was more important and were not willing to risk it by signing up to Schengen.

The UK are entitled to leave without a deal. However, to do so, shows a complete lack of integrity and a total disregard for the GFA.

Like Mistri said, the backstop was there to protect peace in Ireland.

@MysteryTripAgain - Happens all over the World. It is the risk smaller countries take when they join the same club as countries whose population is much larger then their own.

NI did not "join a club". Ireland was invaded and settled by the British.

I can't find anything on the BIC website to support that?

Maybe look a bit harder. I've linked to information previously. Google is amazing, so long as you are able to quality control the results.

@elprup - but WTO have told both Ireland and UK they will no insist on hard borders.

Oh, I didn’t know that. That’s good news!

Yeah, that will be great all right. Of course, the most favoured nation principle of the WTO requires the same rules be applied to all so no border by the UK means no border for any one else. How's that for taking back control?

UK and Ireland opted out of Schengen in 1992. Long before the GFA was finalized.

Schengen is completely irrelevant in a discussion about a customs border.

Norway is in the Schengen area, as is Switzerland. Both have a hard trade border with the EU.

The EU and Ireland are not in Schengen. However they currently have no trade border with the EU.

Last sentence obv should read "the U.K. and Ireland"

Of course, the most favoured nation principle of the WTO requires the same rules be applied to all so no border by the UK means no border for any one else

Same applies to EU if they relax the borders with a third country, they do the same for all.

Schengen is completely irrelevant in a discussion about a customs border

Correct. Buy WhyAmI likes to think it is a scoring point. Maybe not aware that UK and Ireland opted out of Schengen before GFA was signed?

Happens all over the World. It is the risk smaller countries take when they join the same club as countries whose population is much larger then their own.

@MysteryTripAgain, surely, no one is this thick? Have you somehow got horribly confused between Ireland (a) being colonised by a foreign power and (b) joining the EU?

Like Mistri said, the backstop was there to protect peace in Ireland

I don't understand. How? The back stop is a hard border. How does a hard border protect peace in Ireland?

Yes mystery but the reason Ireland stayed out of schengen is because it would have had to put a border in NI. So while it may have happened long before the GFA Ireland was still concerned about how entering the schengen zone would impact NI and the common travel area, so opted out.

The backstop prevents a hard border ever in Ireland.