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Brexit

Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?

965 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2019 08:16

Yellow Hammer (and Black Swan if it exists) and other documents the government itself has produced are our truths and our evidence.

I look to Thomas Jefferson quotes in trying to defend liberal democracy.

His most famous of quotes is

Thomas Jefferson was the principal author of the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration states, “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….”

Self evident truths. These are the bedrock of democracy.

There are many more quotes from Jefferson which talk about the shining beacon of truth and the threats to liberty from falsehoods and those who tell them.

He argued that when the power of the state is used to avoid scrutiny we should be worried and afraid. As a leader he should never be afraid of the truth, because the truth always exists and you can only merely hide it before it makes itself apparent anyway.

“The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.”

Today I feel the need to dust off old Jefferson for my own sanity and to remind myself of what matters. Jefferson helps me focus on dangers and how you fight back. It always comes back to exposure to the truth - how do you work to expose this (and the role of journalism in this)

Seek the truth. Talk the truth. Even if that means being self critical and humble in admitting your mistakes and errors.

It is not your identity as Leaver, Remainer, Tory, Labour, LDer, SNPer, woman, man, English, Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh or European right now.

These identities are harming us, by making us look at the wrong thing rather than see the real danger facing us. They divide us whilst they conquer us.

What you should be focusing on NOW is your commitment to democracy in the face of someone in power actively and explicity saying the rule of law does not matter and the courts are wrong. That is advocating mob rule.

Johnson stood and said threats to MPs were humbug. And refused to moderate his language despite so many (mainly female) MPs saying the threats they received were extremely serious (remembering we've even had a prosecution for a plot to kill Rosie Cooper as well as other successful prosecutions for threats to MPs)

This is where we are at.

Focus on it.

No Deal Brexit and the future of liberal democracy in this country are indivisible and inseparable. They are entwined by the rule of law.

Brexit is NOT in of itself a threat to liberal democracy. It is HOW we leave that is.

I wish this was being said and emphasised concisely and cleanly.

OP posts:
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MockersthefeMANist · 26/09/2019 14:13

a senior government source...

That would be James Slack

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Slack

"Slack wrote the controversial "Enemies of the People" front page article on 4 November 2016 which criticised senior judges in England's High Court of Justice who had made a decision the Daily Mail did not agree with."

prettybird · 26/09/2019 14:13

Now Smug giving the Leader's statement for next week's business.

Monday, lots of NI business
Tuesday, lots of SIs to do with leaving the EU
Wednesday, 2nd reading of Women's Abuse Bill
Thursday, debate on women's mental health and then debate on spending of Ministry of Justice.
Friday, HoC not sitting

tobee · 26/09/2019 14:14

Place marking!

Reading this thread today, I'm now left thinking that Johnson's use of language was so ott to make the headlines about that today, and no longer about losing the Supreme Court judgement.

Cendrillon if people only here are looking at things through a Labour/socialist/Guardian lens, do you lack the self awareness to question whether you look at things through a Tory/Daily Mail lens?

IsFuzzyBeagMise · 26/09/2019 14:15

PMK
I watched the debate last night. I'm totally shocked and saddened.
I usually lurk as I'm Irish, but I read these threads avidly and appreciate the discussion.
Flowers

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 26/09/2019 14:15

All BJ needs to do, if he wins the next election, is get the 2018 Boundary Commission review through Parliament.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45468142

No big fuss. No State of Emergency. No martial law.

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 26/09/2019 14:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 26/09/2019 14:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MockersthefeMANist · 26/09/2019 14:22

The London Asembly are after him for all the money he stuffed down Acuri's cleavage, and they have the legal right to summon ex-mayors, on pain of arrest.

(Oh please.....)

wheresmymojo · 26/09/2019 14:22

Just to say I was shocked and I'm not left wing, have never voted Labour and don't read the Guardian.

Myriade · 26/09/2019 14:23

@RedToothBrush, when I say he 'cant have No Deal' I mean that this would be against the law, not that he wouldnt be doing it .

I, as per my post, am in no doubt that he can (and probably will) chose No Deal over any other choice. Regardless of whether its legal or not. Legally and alking all ver demicracy hasnt stopped him befire. It wont stop him now, esp as the decision is so irreversible (at least in the short and medium term)

Ruby2065 · 26/09/2019 14:23

Re cummings anarchist credentials, look at clare fox mep for brexit party.
Closely linked with Spiked magazine, once called marxism today but now ironically funded by the koch brothers and espouses far right libertarian ideas

  • Hates anything to do with state control or any control whatsoever like censorship etc. Not trying to be all conspiratorial but values are very similar.
RedToothBrush · 26/09/2019 14:24

Beth Rigby@bethrigby
^MP tells me that Johnson had an
‘angry meltdown’ in voting lobbies. Am told that @jessphillips personally challenged him as did others . MP tells me PM saw a group watching through the doors & then started jabbing his finger towards us all^

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ListeningQuietly · 26/09/2019 14:24

Corbyn is an idiot
and the Supreme Court saved his bacon on the dodgy conference resolution result
BUT
His front bench team are not currently calling death threats against MPs Humbug

Bozo is
and that is unforgivable

ITS ABOUT DEMOCRACY, NOT BREXIT

GaspodeWonderCat · 26/09/2019 14:26

Have any of you seen 'The Loudest Voice' on Sky Atlantic? The rise of Roger Ailes and Fox News funded by Murdoch. It covers a lot of what RTB has been talking about: populism - setting the agenda, the language used and the purposes. It also mentions Trump & the birther movement. It shows how Trump came about and the rise of populism. Scary. His abuse of women is also covered but not exploited.

CendrillonSings · 26/09/2019 14:31

if people only here are looking at things through a Labour/socialist/Guardian lens, do you lack the self awareness to question whether you look at things through a Tory/Daily Mail lens?

I’m sure you’re mature enough to deal with 1% of the posts on here dissenting from the majority opinion, right?

Hates anything to do with state control or any control whatsoever like censorship etc. Not trying to be all conspiratorial but values are very similar.

What exactly is wrong with disliking state control and censorship? Are these not valid political views anymore?

DGRossetti · 26/09/2019 14:32

In other news, vaccine rates for under-5s is falling

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-49831581

Just leave that there.

tobee · 26/09/2019 14:32

I wasn't talking about those 1% posts Cendrillon. I was asking you personally about self awareness. Is that your answer to that then, that you are not self aware?

DGRossetti · 26/09/2019 14:36

What exactly is wrong with disliking state control and censorship? Are these not valid political views anymore?

Depends, really. If you can believe in a universal morality it's no problem.

If you don't then why censor violent - or indeed any pornography ? As an example. As Shaw said, once you agree the principle, all else is simply arguing over the price.

How about religious sensibilities ? Where are the cartoons of Mohammed ?

Mistigri · 26/09/2019 14:36

What exactly is wrong with disliking state control

So you're against current government policies which will dramatically increase state involvement in things like delivering radioisotopes and pharmaceuticals?

Alsohuman · 26/09/2019 14:38

David Herdson
@DavidHerdson
·
7m
Big slide in Boris Johnson personal ratings.

Boris Characteristics, net agree (YouGov, change vs 5-6 Sept)

Competent -17 (down 13)
Decisive +25 (down 11)
Strong +10 (down 11)
Honest -30 (down 6)
Likeable -5 (down 9)
Authentic -20 (down 4)
In touch -30 (down 6)

TheElementsSong · 26/09/2019 14:38

It's interesting, again, reflecting on RTB's completely sensible plea to rise above Leave/Remain or Tory/Labour identities, and then looking at posts from the past 12 hours or so. Now obviously like all humans, I bring my own personal bias.

However, my biased observation is that there are particular identities who are still very keen to preserve said distinctions, and not just excuse but actively celebrate particular behaviours from their side, whilst going heavy on the whataboutery against what they themselves persist in identifying as the other side.

Naming no names, and all.

DGRossetti · 26/09/2019 14:40

Anyway, whenever people decry state control, what they inevitably mean is state control in their lives. Whilst making it mandatory for everybody else of the "lower classes".

But if we are shrinking state control, we can pretty quickly dispense with the farce of our drug laws can't we ? Get rid of trading standards too. No need for the Civil Aviation Authority either (given the current trajectory of airlines anyway). NICE can go, along with speed limits.

Anymore for anymore. I look forward to attracting a variant of "don't be ridiculous"

DGRossetti · 26/09/2019 14:49

Big slide in Boris Johnson personal ratings.

I wonder how Tory buyers regret manifests itself ?

Boris' whole premiership raises questions about his power of judgement. Going back a year, it was clear that whoever succeeded Theresa May was going to go down in flames with the absolute impossible task of squaring the circle. The fact that Boris ended up with it when he could so easily have swerved it, speaks volumes. He either genuinely believed he was the man for the job (which so far hasn't been proven), or felt he had to act in case one of his rivals (Gove ?) got there first - and was able to do the job. The former state of affairs speaks to an arrogance rarely seen outside secure mental institutions, and the latter speaks to a deeper insecurity suggesting an imposter syndrome.

It's also entirely possible that if he can't have it, he'll break it out of spite which may be part (or all) of what we are seeing. He has the man-child personality so often found in great men like Stalin, Mussolini, Goering, John Gotti, Richard Nixon, J. Edgar Hoover ....

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 26/09/2019 14:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CendrillonSings · 26/09/2019 14:52

I was asking you personally about self awareness. Is that your answer to that then, that you are not self aware?

If you’re not aware that I’m aware that I’m a conservative and make no secret of it, then I can’t help you.

So you're against current government policies which will dramatically increase state involvement in things like delivering radioisotopes and pharmaceuticals?

Yes, because I voted Remain - mindblowing, I know. I simply don’t prioritize stopping Brexit over stopping a far left takeover of this country.