Westministenders: Boris Johnson Broke The Law

[RedToothBrush]

ITS OFFICIAL
The Highest Court in the Land has ruled that Boris Johnson has broken the law.

Parliament is Sovereign.

Despite the calls for his resignation it is highly unlikely he will under the current political climate.

It must be stressed that the judgement was UNAMINOUS and went further than most expected, and took the hardest possible line again the government

The power now lies with the Speakers of the Lords and Commons to decide when Parliament reopens.

It also means that all the bills which were ended by proroguation are now back in play.

Expect a full backlash from the hard right attacking the courts are going full on 'enemies of the people'. This will be NASTY

The strength of this ruling does pretty much rule out another proroguation as the courts are liable to throw it out immediately if they try it on again.

Johnson is in New York. He needs to get on a plane very quickly.

Personally, I disagree strongly with holding UK-wide referendums on anything, not just the EU,
as these cause an inherent clash with the Parliamentary system of govt we have - which can choose to override any referendum

Any referendum can only be advisory under our Constitution

(Indie referendums in Scotland / Ni / Wales are different, because their Parliaments / Assemblies don't legally have the power to declare or reject independence)

I’m reading the judgement in between bouts of actual work and I have to say I think it’s just wrong, I’m sorry. I’m genuinely astonished by it. I say that as someone who very badly wants to stay in the EU.
They seem to be saying that the advice to prorogue is unlawful if it frustrates parliament’s role. They take all kind of political factors into account in deciding that it did - which they shouldn’t do. But also, on the facts, even as they set them out, it didn’t frustrate parliaments role. Parliament passed the legislation blocking no deal.
I’ve not read the whole thing I admit. But I have a suspicion they’ve bollocksed this, and permanently damaged their standing.

I shall never cease to be astonished that so many so-called "patriots" are not only totally ignorant of their country's constitution and institutions, but actively hostile to them.

A majority of parliament was not elected on a manifesto commitment to bring about a no deal Brexit.
There is no reason for them to vote to do this.
We have a parliamentary democracy mummy

Mummy let’s hope you or your close family don’t have any medical issues that need essential life saving medication then. It would be such a shame if they didn’t get them wouldn’t it eh?

I want no deal as Parliament has shown themselves to be liars, they promise and then back track or sit on the fence, it is like they refuse to see how a lack of trust will effect things. This last few months have shown this.

The lack of logic in this is horrifying. I’m beginning to think universal suffrage was a retrograde step.

With my historian hat on I was feeling really sad that our education system has been so bad at making sure we understand the principles of our parliamentary democracy, the importance of the checks and balances between parliament. government and the judiciary, and how they developed.A bit of me cheered when 1611 got a mention in the judgement.

Then I thought of a family friend who played a big part in my intellectual development. We debated these issues, science, god, the universe and everything as I was growing up. He was a teacher, he knows this stuff. But now he is fully recruited to the wartime spirit of the Brexiteers, he would get rid of parliament if that let Boris take us out with no deal and rid us of the shackle of the dreaded EU. It’s a cult and I am not sure even education can protect you from cults

How lack of trust will affect things

On trust...

The public are supposed to trust everyone on the Faragist > leaver spectrum. We are supposed to believe that Leave politicians (and voters) have the foresight and perspicacity to predict a vision for the country against all the evidence.

How can we trust their judgment when none of them could be trusted to follow the law. Can't they see how this was a Dangerous Precedent. Proroguing Parliament at will ,If allowed to proceed, would have given carte Blanche to any future government ranging from Corbyn to Tommy Robinson. It would give any government go ahead to suspend parliament for as long as they liked for whatever purpose.

Thank god that an independent Supreme Court can be trusted to uphold Parliamentary sovereignty. Leavers clearly can't be trusted to even uphold their most precious dream of sovereignty so why should we trust them regarding anything else?

I’m reading the judgement in between bouts of actual work

What is your actual work, and why do you think it gives you expertise that outweighs that of twelve judges with a several centuries' worth of judicial expertise in constitutional matters?

Go google Dunning-Kruger and you may end the day better informed, if not wiser.

Almost all authoritarians only support the law when it used against their opponents

No Deal voters tend to be authoritarians, because they hate compromising with those of different views.

I shall never cease to be astonished that so many so-called "patriots" are not only totally ignorant of their country's constitution and institutions, but actively hostile to them.

Not sure why - it's hardly an accident, is it ?

"I’m reading the judgement in between bouts of actual work and I have to say I think it’s just wrong"

Are you a qualified lawyer with decades of experience at the highest levels and in constitutional issues ?

If not, why do you think your legal knowledge trumps that of the Supreme Court ?

Well, I’m a lawyer, so reading court judgements is something I’m used to, and I’ve seen plenty of cases get decided in ways which are wrong - or unexpected, if you prefer.
I think it’s fairly to say that plenty of lawyers - including those who heard the case in the divisional court and decided it differently - might see grounds for disagreement here. It’s a controversial area and it’s quite normal for lawyers to disagree about those.
So there is really no need to be rude.

The lack of logic in this is horrifying. I’m beginning to think universal suffrage was a retrograde step.

Don't worry. Once Queenies, gone, that'll be next. Remember over half BXP would support removing the vote from woman and introducing a property qualification.

@LloydBraun - and your legal qualifications are? I am sorry but I have to ask......

And remember this is not about brexit - it is about parliamentary democracy.....

And there were 11 judges......

And the decision was unanimous......

Thing is - as I understand it there is no court of appeal above them......

Boris could of course introduce legislation making him the ultimate leader answerable to no one.....I am not sure that would pass at the moment

But also, on the facts, even as they set them out, it didn’t frustrate parliaments role. Parliament passed the legislation blocking no deal.

But the judgement wasn't about Brexit, it was about parliament being able to reasonably carry out it's duties. Prorogation stopped all parliamentary activity including effectively scrapping the Domestic Violence Bill.

Ps - go and read the judgement and see what you think.

With my historian hat on I was feeling really sad that our education system has been so bad at making sure we understand the principles of our parliamentary democracy, the importance of the checks and balances between parliament. government and the judiciary, and how they developed

"Sad" would apply if it were an oversight. The fact it's cynically deliberate should make that "mad".

People taking the citizenship test have to learn more than our own citizens do in 12 years of school.

I also don't think this is about remain or leave. This is about can the prime minister break the law and remove parliament so he can act independently. Or in any other way he chooses at any time. Irrelevant of the law.

And the answer for me is no, he can't, he needs to comply with the law and our constitution.

Interesting they are leaking cox leaked it. They need to publish the full legal response and what exactly was asked, because I'm stunned if Geoffrey cox is that incapable. Even a lay person would say let's see the documentation on why so long because this will face a legal challenge.

As there is no such documentation either cox didn't say five weeks were legal or he's a fucking idiot who needs to be fired.

There must surely be a Darwinian Effect to put paid to all these anti-experts? Will they take their cars to be maintained by the hairdresser, or ask for medical advice from their greengrocers.

You think eleven of the most senior judges in the land all got it wrong. Well get a load of yourself.

Ps - go and read the judgement and see what you think.

Probably better to start with the Bill of Rights, as that was specifically cited ?

Well, I’m a lawyer, so reading court judgements is something I’m used to, and I’ve seen plenty of cases get decided in ways which are wrong - or unexpected, if you prefer.

What's your constitutional law background?

There is a clear distinction between experts being uncertain of the outcome of a case before the decision is handed down, and disagreeing with it after reading the full judgment.

It takes a planet-sized ego to decide (after not even bothering to read the whole judgment) that a unanimous decision by the 12 senior judges is wrong!

Plus, this is literally how constitutional law is made.

But prorogation always does that. It always prevents parliament conducting business.
They seem to be saying it’s a justifiable issue because it can be used to frustrate parliaments role. I probably agree with that. An attempt to prorogue indefinitely would be clearly unlawful. I just don’t think here the argument that the role was frustrated is substantiated.

There must surely be a Darwinian Effect to put paid to all these anti-experts? Will they take their cars to be maintained by the hairdresser, or ask for medical advice from their greengrocers

Well we know there kids are probably unvaccinated

their !