If you can’t get what you want... what would you settle for? (Remainers and brexiters)

[Flopjustwantscoffee]

Just curiosity really about if there’s any space for compromise given how polarized the arguement is getting. Personally I voted remain and don’t want to leave at all, but No Deal being the absolute worst outcome (in my opinion) Id be happy with us leaving with some variation of Theresa May’s deal or other compromise (well, not happy, less unhappy).
If you are pro-remain would you accept leaving with a deal to accept the risk of no deal? If you’re a leaver would your second option at this stage be to leave with No Deal or find a compromise with the EU (and if so what)?

I’d compromise on Norway ++ but what’s the point? If we’re doing that we may as well Remain and many Leavers know this - which is why they oppose it.

There are currently no countries in both the SM + CU because everyone with that combo is in the EU.

That's not really the point though. If everyone insists that their first choice is best & non-negotiable, compromise is impossible.

But the problem is the WA or Norway +++ is worse than remaining.

So Remainers don’t get what they want and Leavers don’t get what they wanted either - so basically no one gets what they want - it’s just some unhappy limbo

That’s a bit of a pointless compromise

Given the close result, the only way to go not to cause massive division was a soft Brexit which I think most people would have accepted.
How we came from that to this situation where you have some politicians baying for a no deal, will be the focus of study for unfortunate undergrads for years.
Farage and co keep pushing the line that far away from what we currently have that I wouldn’t be surprised if they started proposing War.
Other than that I would accept an Investigation into any politician who is shrieking for no deal to see if they stood to benefit from it. With massive jail time attached to it.

So Remainers don’t get what they want and Leavers don’t get what they wanted either - so basically no one gets what they want - it’s just some unhappy limbo

Arguably if either side "gets what it wants" then we will be in a culture war over Brexit for the foreseeable future.

Negotiation and compromise are all about accepting [what you believe to be] second best, in order to (a) avoid a worse outcome and (b) achieve an outcome that has as broad support as possible, or at least pisses people off more or less equally across the board

I won’t be happy with any version of Brexit, but something that protects the GFA, the Union, health, employment and food standards would be a start.

I would like to see consequences for those who are gambling with the lives and futures of so many, for their own political/economic/narcissistic gain.

I would like to see a Labour Party that can communicate across the political and economic spectrum without getting bogged down with identity politics and scaring everyone into thinking they want a time machine to go back to the 1970s. I would like to see a Conservative (and Unionist!) Party that is what its name describes and not some mad far-right nihilist cult.

everything is worse than we have now

Nevertheless, some Brexit outcomes are much worse than others. (And at this point even revoke has to be considered to have serious downsides - and I say that even though I support revoke and rethink).

or at least pisses people off more or less equally across the board

Yay - that makes it all worthwhile!

There is no good outcome now though. The least worst is all we can hope for.

All of this would have been resolved if David Bloody Cameron and his team had figured out how to leave in a way that would keep everyone happy and put it as the option in the referendum.

It's pretty obvious they wouldn't have been able to do that and would then have not had the referendum.

I don’t disagree - it’s just totally shit that this is ‘taking back control’

I don’t disagree Hollow. The ‘S’not my fault it’s Boris’s’ line don’t impress me much.

I don't want to leave but I am so utterly pissed off with the situation I'm starting to now wish for hard Brexit total chaos. They've cried wolf way too much with this no deal shit. When the harsh reality of no deal Britain finally hits home we are going to finally shut up the Brexiteers and hopefully kill off the Tories for a generation. We can then beg to join the EU again with a much worse deal than the one we have now.

I'd be all in favour of this if it weren't for the deaths that would happen. So clearly my line in the sand is peace in NI and the poor and sick protected. But that isn't going to happen.

Another remainer here who really does not want to leave the EU, thinks this is all madness and that we can never, in any way, shape, form, planet, or universe, get a deal with the EU that is anything like as good as the one we already have through membership... but to avert civil war at this point would accept a soft Brexit with a realistic 10-year transition period.

I think the civil war is already happening. I don’t see soft Brexit changing that.

It’s not a good deal compared to what we have. No Dealers and Remainers alike will be pissed off having to follow EU rules with no say. No Dealers won’t give up pushing for No Deal on the basis that ‘it’s not really Brexit’. Those who originally wanted soft Brexit will come to see the problems with it.

The implication of compromise is that both sides concede ground to reach an agreement. But the ground is simply too far apart. Soft Brexit isn’t a compromise at all but a fudge that pleases no-one.

“No Dealers and Remainers alike will be pissed off having to follow EU rules with no say.”

As a remainer I think the lack of having a say is a real shame but the consequence of the UK voting leave and something we would just have to accept. The thing is that I trust our government far less than I do the EU, so far prefer them having to follow EU rules than have a free hand - I expect this is an unpopular opinion. I am sure there would be future EU rules I didn’t agree with (as there are now). From my point of view there is no option as good as remain, so no, I don’t think I would be pissed off as I am more concerned about what our own government wants to do with our country post brexit and prefer the check of the EU to not. Leavers voted for less say in what goes on with the EU so we just have to deal with that

As a remainer I think the lack of having a say is a real shame but the consequence of the UK voting leave and something we would just have to accept.

But the whole purpose of leaving the EU is to have more say. So it’s not something Leavers will accept as a consequence either.

Yes but this thread isn’t about us all getting what we want. Leavers can believe that leaving the EU means “having more say” but that was just empty promises - we will never benefit from not having a say in how the EU is run, whatever our long term relationship is, because they are our closest neighbours and our fortunes have always been tied with theirs, for centuries. We are not an important nation and have little clout on our own. A leave vote was always for less power, whatever the leave camp promised. So given that this thread is about what people would settle for, and not what would make them happy, and leaving means never having a say anyway, I would still rather take the closer relationship with the EU. We would still have left, and the leave camp promised 3 years ago it would be easy and we would have Norway++ arrangements etc so this is on them

No Dealers and Remainers alike will be pissed off having to follow EU rules with no say.”
Isn't that what Brexiteers want? If China wants to sell goods into the EU it has to comply with EU standards. So will we. Do they think that businesses are going to have 2 tier of goods, one substandard and one compliant? We will still need to comply with their rules in order to trade. We just won't have a hand in setting them as we have had in the past.

Of course Britain will have no say in anything, still having to comply with EU rules and be seen as the laughing stock of
Europe. Already is. BUT...Britain won the war😂

The implication of compromise is that both sides concede ground to reach an agreement. But the ground is simply too far apart. Soft Brexit isn’t a compromise at all but a fudge that pleases no-one.
I would go further and have just made this point on another thread: Leavers are going to have to compromise with each other. One of the reasons for this impasse is the 17.4 million can't agree what Brexit is.

“Leavers are going to have to compromise with each other”

Yes this is key. The leave camp have always been fragmented and it was they who prevented the WA being passed, and the reason we have not left yet. Leavers have been so let down by the leave camp who have just continued with infighting and making undeliverable promises while blaming everyone else for their failings

“Leavers are going to have to compromise with each other”

Yes, let's repeat this load and clear, although at the moment we are mostly preaching to the converted. I am sick and tired of being told it's all the fault of the EU and it's all the fault of "Remoaners". If Jacob Rees-Mogg and company had shown Theresa May the loyalty that they expect MPs to show Johnson and co-operated with her, UK could have exited on 29th March as planned.

If you Leavers are upset that you haven't left, take the blame yourselves.

The leave camp have always been fragmented and it was they who prevented the WA being passed, and the reason we have not left yet

Disagree. Even Johnson and Mogg voted for the WA the third time around.

First WA vote

For

Cons 196
Lab 2
Indy 4

Second WA vote

For

Cons 235
Lab 4
Indy 4

Third WA Vote

For

Cons 277
Lab 5
Indy 4

The above results show that it was Labour that consistently voted against the WA as it did not pass their six tests, but reality was they were trying to force a General Election by arguing that Conservatives were making a bad job of Brexit. However, Farage came along in May and did well in the EU elections and Labour have remained silent about a General Election since as they know they will lose.

Benn Act might force a Johnson to ask for an extension, but can't force the EU to agree. Only takes one of the 27 members to say no and UK leaves EU on 31 Oct with no deal.

EU are in a tough spot as they have previously said that further extension would have to be based on a further referendum or General Election. However, both have been ruled out by Parliament. So what reason can EU provide to justify an extension based on their previous comments?

If the EU agree an extension without any specific reason, the leave supporters will sing their favourite songs;

"We told you EU are afraid to lose UK's contribution as UK is the third largest donor to the EU"

"When UK leaves, there will be 9 members paying in and 18 taking out from the EU. That puts more pressure on the 9 to find further funds, or the takers have to take less"

Take a look at

www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-budget/germany-wants-to-cap-next-eu-budget-at-1-of-gdp-sources-idUSKBN1W10OF

Key point was;

“My big concern is that Europe will be in a difficult economic and geopolitical situation if there is no budget by the first of January,” the EU commissioner in charge of the talks, Guenther Oettinger, told an EU ministers’ meeting in Brussels

He said the urgency to strike a deal was heightened by the bloc’s weakening economy, with Germany and other EU states stagnating

Essentially the domino effect could start. Some think that Italy will be the next Greece.

If Jacob Rees-Mogg and company had shown Theresa May the loyalty that they expect MPs to show Johnson and co-operated with her, UK could have exited on 29th March as planned

Both Jacob Rees Mogg and Boris Johnson voted for the WA third time around. Labour consistently voted against it. Even third time around only 5 labour MP's voted for the WA. As most labour MP's are remain supporters it is fair to say that remain MP's blocked the WA.

I heard a historian talking ages ago saying that 52/48 was only ever a mandate for a very soft Brexit. I agree.