Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: It's like a bloody aviary

961 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2019 20:40

From Flamingos to Yellowhammer and Black Swans.

The Tory Remainer is now a Dodo. Instead the party in inhabited by disaster capitalist Vultures. Jeremy Corbyn, meanwhile, has been labelled by the right wing press as a Chicken. The SNP would very much like Boris Johnson to be a Jailbird. The LDs are keen to sing like Canaries about the contents of BlackSwan. The Br

And the Tower of London is starting to get very jumpy about the whereabouts and location of its Ravens.

I would not, however, advise eating urban wild pigeons if things get desperate, from what I know of their health.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
tobee · 15/09/2019 00:43

I'm all for breadth of views on Westminsterenders.

However, someone upthread posted about Sam Gyiamah and filibustering the Turing pardon and I believed them. Then several other posters showed that Gyiamah had helped the pardon go through etc.

Lesson learned:-"tobee, stopped being lazy and check for yourself"

FoldyRoll · 15/09/2019 02:26

In other news....

A significant number of independent councillors in Hartlepool recently decided to join BXP, then promptly teamed up with the Tories to take control of the council.
This will be interesting.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-tees-49686398

phpolly · 15/09/2019 03:44

.

mathanxiety · 15/09/2019 07:04

www.ft.com/content/b6571af0-d003-11e9-99a4-b5ded7a7fe3f?fbclid=IwAR0ZAUwmCA-c0SVq1OxfhlzkL_-Kh2xGXP3rTR1AtiF6_Apq4uTHlsEpF9s
A cautionary tale from none other than Max Hastings.

borntobequiet · 15/09/2019 07:05

Every utterance of Corbyn against a no deal has sounded entirely convincing to me. He may be a Lexiter, but he’s not delusional, unlike the Tory (and some Labour) Brexiteers. He knows a no deal would wreck the economy and jobs. Where would Labour be then?

BigChocFrenzy · 15/09/2019 07:19

www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49705213

Boris Johnson did not believe in Brexit during the referendum campaign and backed Leave "because it would help his political career",
says David Cameron.

In an extract from his memoir published in the Sunday Timess*, the former PM also refers to cabinet minister Michael Gove as "a foam-flecked Faragist".

The pair were "ambassadors for the expert-trashing, truth-twisting age of populism", Mr Cameron writes.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/09/2019 07:21

NHS trusts handing over £205m a year to the Government in interest payments as debts mount

Punitive interest rates deliberately charged

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/nhs-trusts-bill-interest-payments-government-debts-mount/amp/?

BigChocFrenzy · 15/09/2019 07:27

The concern over the EU was whipped up from a v low public interest

We need this concern to somehow drop as quickly as it arose - preferably not because people are distracted when the post-Brexit economy goes over the cliff

Jeremy Cliffe

David Cameron committed to a Brexit referendum in 2013. I see he is still claiming - as he did at the time - that there was some sort of public clamour for one.

Wrong now as it was then.

Brexit was only ever about the Tory party’s internal psychodramas.

Westminstenders: It's like a bloody aviary
BigChocFrenzy · 15/09/2019 07:36

Looks like concern over the EU rose a little when Cameron became PM, probably because

a) austerity - which made people vulnerable to populists
b) he was whipping it up, to distract attention from a)

However, it only spiked - and massively - when he made the most irresponsible decision ever for a PM and
made the EU an issue to tear apart the country instead of just his party

He duty as PM was to put the country first and face down the fanatics, like John Major did
Much better the Tory party had imploded instead of the country

Mistigri · 15/09/2019 07:59

*I'm all for breadth of views on Westminsterenders.

However, someone upthread posted about Sam Gyiamah and filibustering the Turing pardon and I believed them. Then several other posters showed that Gyiamah had helped the pardon go through etc. *

There is partisan bullshit everywhere including on here, though generally in lower concentrations than elsewhere.

The smears directed at Gyimah by Labour Party political operatives - here and all over social media - are particularly inappropriate and dare I say it outright racist.

Mistigri · 15/09/2019 08:10

Also

@MSmithsonPB A general election after Jan 1 2020 now edges to be the betting favourite on Betfair's general election timing market

My prediction of (a) no Brexit on 31/10 and (b) a GE next year is looking better and better.

Might have been wrong on (c) though - which was a Johnson victory. He's been far more incompetent than in my wildest dreams. I now think we may need several elections before a stable government emerges.

TheMShip · 15/09/2019 08:12

From Jo Maugham today:

There is a flaw in the European Union (Withdrawal) (No.2) Act 2019 (the “Benn Act“) and, if MPs want to avoid us leaving without a deal, they may need to take counter-measures.

The flaw arises in circumstances where the Prime Minister brings a Withdrawal Agreement (“WA”) to Parliament for approval. And it arises from the mismatch between the provisions of the Benn Act and those of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (the “2018 Act“).

What follows is a slightly simplified description of the flaw, to aid readability.

To avoid the PM having to request an extension from the EU under section 1 of the Benn Act the Commons must approve the WA. If they do, on or prior to 19 October, the obligation in the Benn Act to request an extension falls away.

However, the provisions of the 2018 Act specify further preconditions, beyond approval by the Commons of the WA, before the WA can be ratified and No Deal avoided.

Those preconditions are set out in section 13(1) of the 2018 Act and include the passing of a further Act implementing the Withdrawal Agreement (the “Further Obligations”).

Summing up, if the Commons approves the WA but these Further Obligations are not satisfied before 31 October 2019, then two consequences follow. First, the Benn Act will not apply to require the PM to request an extension from the EU. And, second, we will leave with No Deal.

So, imagine the PM says privately to the ERG ‘support my WA and I will deliver No Deal.’ In those circumstances, with the help of some Labour MPs, the Commons might approve even Theresa May’s WA.

The PM would thus have escaped the obligation in the Benn Act to request an extension and could deliver No Deal.

He could, for example, again suspend Parliament (subject of course to the outcome of this week’s Supreme Court hearing). There is some evidence (see below) that he plans to do this. And we would leave without a deal.

Indeed, even without again suspending Parliament, he may well be able to deliver No Deal simply by refusing to put before the Commons an Act implementing the Withdrawal Agreement. In such circumstances the Further Obligations would not be satisfied in advance of 31 October 2019 and we would leave with No Deal.

I had been discussing the above privately with trusted MPs and friends. However, because there is circumstantial evidence, set out below, that the PM’s office is aware of this flaw, I am putting it into the public domain in the hope that MPs consider what counter-measures they may wish to take.

The best way to bypass the flaw is for MPs to refuse to approve any motion for a WA on or before 19 October. Those who want the Withdrawal Agreement should refuse on the basis that, by voting for it, they may well be delivering No Deal.

In those circumstances, I believe the Courts, likely in consequence of proceedings afoot in Scotland, will enforce the Benn Act and require the PM to request an extension.

However, nothing is certain. There may be other flaws I have failed to spot. And the EU may refuse an extension. The situation now, as has always been the case, is that the only absolutely certain way to avoid No Deal is for Parliament to legislate to change the default if no agreement is reached from No Deal to revoke.

*

The circumstantial evidence is:

A story, reported in today’s Mail on Sunday, that a further suspension of Parliament is planned.

Reports that the Prime Minister is meeting members of the ERG privately.

Widely reported briefings that the Prime Minister plans to put a re-heated version of Theresa May’s Withdrawal Agreement before Parliament.

TheMShip · 15/09/2019 08:13

I won't link it, but there's a story in the DM referred to in the text I just posted, indicating that the govt is considering resuspending parliament to get over the no deal line.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/09/2019 08:18

Jo Maugham is really desperate to avoid Brexit, so he is determined to avoid the WA being passed,
which is of cause Brexit

I hope MPs would look very closely at the 2018 WIthdrawal Act before just taking his claim for it.

If they do decide he is right, then if the WA is brought back, they should add an amendment to repeal any necessary parts of the 2018 Act

BigChocFrenzy · 15/09/2019 08:19

ôf course Brexit

BigChocFrenzy · 15/09/2019 08:23

At that stage, another way forward would be for a VoNC replacing BJ by Corbyn

The political reality is that there is little political support to replace WA by Revoke

  • the difficult would be several orders of magnitude higher than agreeing Corbyn as interim PM
Hoooo · 15/09/2019 08:24

Morning.

I was surprised by that sam gyimah claim posted on here last night.

So I checked it out.

But many, many people won't.

The issue of brexit in a nutshell.

Tell lies about people/events and hope enough people believe them.

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 15/09/2019 08:25

The best way to bypass the flaw is for MPs to refuse to approve any motion for a WA on or before 19 October. Those who want the Withdrawal Agreement should refuse on the basis that, by voting for it, they may well be delivering No Deal.

Dear god - imagine the optics... MPs who insisted we mustn’t leave without a deal refusing to vote for a deal in case we don’t get a deal.

The situation now, as has always been the case, is that the only absolutely certain way to avoid No Deal is for Parliament to legislate to change the default if no agreement is reached from No Deal to revoke.

Which is exactly what we’d have if MPs hadn’t been too petty and partisan to back an SNP amendment 🤷‍♀️

TheMShip · 15/09/2019 08:32

I'm going to put my prediction hat on and say there'll be a VONC immediately on return in October, amended (allowed by Bercow) to say the house has confidence in Ken Clarke. He will implement the Benn act, the EU will refuse 3 months and offer 2 years. The house will accept and then have a FTPA vote for a GE, which will happen in Nov/Dec.

Peregrina · 15/09/2019 08:40

You would hope then that Parliament tabled an emergency bill to stop Parliament being prorogued at the PM's will. Although I assume that if the Queen's speech doesn't get through, there won't be any time to do this. So then we need the VoNC. The Opposition have to use all of Johnson's weapons against him - like his complete loss of majority.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/09/2019 08:43

babooshka It wasn't just because it was an SNP amendment

Apart from them, there is almost NO support to just Revoke, without even a PV

and just imagine the fury in the country ......

Peregrina · 15/09/2019 08:44

I like that prediction MShip.

We need a thread called Brexit Predictions, where they are all listed and we can see who comes nearest.

BirdandSparrow · 15/09/2019 08:46

Going to catch up with the thread this morning, but saw this about Labour councils pushing for a "remain and transform" stance We must stop Brexit in any form, councillors tell Jeremy Corbyn

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/15/we-must-stop-brexit-in-any-form-councillors-tell-jeremy-corbyn?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copiar_en_el_portapapeles

GaspodeWonderCat · 15/09/2019 08:47

My only amendment to your prediction Mship is that a new speaker is elected before the general election. Else happy to second the motion.

howabout · 15/09/2019 08:47

TheMShip I agree with you on VoNC and could even just about stretch to Confidence in Jeremy Corbyn - Labour and / or SNP supporting KC over JC is political suicide.

I agree it is a given that the EU will refuse 3 months and offer longer. However I am not convinced it is clear that there is a majority for longer in Parliament, especially if an immediate GE is a pre-requisite.

Interesting thoughts from Jo. I wonder if the penny is beginning to drop that with a few tweaks the WA starts to make Canada+ look much more likely than Norway +? This makes WA something ERG / DUP can support and still possible for Labour Leavers to get behind. It shuts the door on Remain.