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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's like a bloody aviary

961 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2019 20:40

From Flamingos to Yellowhammer and Black Swans.

The Tory Remainer is now a Dodo. Instead the party in inhabited by disaster capitalist Vultures. Jeremy Corbyn, meanwhile, has been labelled by the right wing press as a Chicken. The SNP would very much like Boris Johnson to be a Jailbird. The LDs are keen to sing like Canaries about the contents of BlackSwan. The Br

And the Tower of London is starting to get very jumpy about the whereabouts and location of its Ravens.

I would not, however, advise eating urban wild pigeons if things get desperate, from what I know of their health.

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RedToothBrush · 14/09/2019 09:39

Gets popcorn and waits for the rants about Nicky Morgan

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RedToothBrush · 14/09/2019 09:43

You know all those day time adverts for things like funeral plans? Often with former celebrities.

I think he's auditioning for one in this photo.

Westminstenders: It's like a bloody aviary
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Peregrina · 14/09/2019 09:44

Want to revoke. No People's vote.

I didn't hear the interview - I thought that was the idea if they could form a Government, which, much as I might like it, I think is unlikely. However, who knows how it will all work out - with Johnson Tories, Real Tories, Labour, Labour-Momentum, LIbDems and Brexit, in GB and PC and SNP in Wales and Scotland, plus the possibility of an Alliance party taking votes in NI?

I saw that in one of the Local By elections the other night, the Brexit party stood a candidate, who duly came nowhere.

Oakenbeach · 14/09/2019 09:46

Something like the reverse of the oft-repeated claim that 80% of people voted for parties that supported Brexit.

Which is true... In 2017, 80% of people were happy to vote for a party that was committed to deliver the referendum result! Back in the distant past of two years ago, most Remain voters were resigned to delivering the Referendum result, even if they weren’t thrilled about it - most people simply wanted to move on, as they still do!

It’s one of the reasons I want us to leave with a deal even though I voted Remain (though I’m wavering on this at the moment).

Peregrina · 14/09/2019 09:48

Nicky Morgan: my instincts are that I am sorry the Remain campaign did not win in 2016.

Peregrina chokes on her cup of tea! Who was on the Front bench next to Johnson cheering him on when Parliament was about to be prorogued?

chomalungma · 14/09/2019 09:49

In 2017, 80% of people were happy to vote for a party that was committed to deliver the referendum result

TBH - I voted to stop the Tories getting in. Because austerity had damaged the country so much.

Which is the whole problem with our FPTP system.

Staying in Europe was important. Stopping austerity was important.

A bit like the vote now.

chomalungma · 14/09/2019 09:49

Who was on the Front bench next to Johnson cheering him on when Parliament was about to be prorogued

I watched her that evening. It was unbelievable.

prettybird · 14/09/2019 09:53

I heard a statistic quoted that needs to used more often (caveat: I haven't check the maths Wink) to counter the 80% trope (a trope because neither party won a mandate Confused): that 54% voted for parties that explicitly rejected No Deal.

Random18 · 14/09/2019 09:56

Maybe Nicky is realising that she's sold her soul for nothing.

And will slowly start to put these comments in there?

I wouldn't be surprised if my MP starts to.do the same now. Career politician, and very poor constituency MP.

prettybird · 14/09/2019 09:58

Any respect that I used to have for Nicky Morgan for having some decent principles and ethics (even though I disagreed with her for being a Conservative) evaporated when I saw her performance on the Front Bench during the short period that Parliament was back from recess.

If she's suffering from Stockholm Syndrome, she has a very bad case Hmm

Either that or she is a fucking hypocrite Angry

Pretty sure it is the latter Angry

chomalungma · 14/09/2019 09:58

that 54% voted for parties that explicitly rejected No Deal

That sounds about right.

The Labour manifesto was for a deal that was good for the UK and protected jobs.
Lib Dems - anti-Brexit.

42% people voted for the Conservatives.
About 52% (?) voted for parties that didn't want No Deal.

That statistic needs to be heard more often.

TheGlaikitRambler · 14/09/2019 10:00

Hi, sorry to jump in but I wanted to ask - are we expecting Black Swan to be leaked today?

Peregrina · 14/09/2019 10:10

that 54% voted for parties that explicitly rejected No Deal.

I don't think I'd even heard that statistic. But even with "80% voted for Brexit", the Labour idea was very much different from May's hard Brexit.

TheABC · 14/09/2019 10:13

And.... that's my canary. When you hear Nicky Morgan uttering "referendum", you can be sure there's a lot of other MPs who are thinking it.

They are probably seeing it as the least worst option to avoid looking weak or putting Yellowhammer into reality. Because the minute your child or relative suffers due to a lack of drugs THAT YOUR MP EXPLICITLY VOTED FOR, it's game over for them.

Songsofexperience · 14/09/2019 10:19

Is it just me or does that sad gammon face look increasingly like a Bannon lookalike?

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/wetherspoon-pubs-tim-martin-brexit-no-deal-remainer-a9103786.html

RedToothBrush · 14/09/2019 10:21

James Cook @BBCJamesCook
THREAD I have been wading through the full judgment from Scotland's highest civil court, the Court of Session, on the prorogation of parliament this evening (with assistance, as you can see). Here are some points I think are interesting. #Prorogation #TheNine

^First, what is this all about? A group of parliamentarians led by @joannaccherry of the SNP wanted to stop the prorogation (suspension) of parliament, which has now taken effect, arguing that it was unlawfully designed to stymie parliamentary debate on Brexit.
As it happened the High Court in London has rejected a similar case but one argument made by the petitioners in Edinburgh (that is, Ms Cherry and co) was that Scotland (which has its own legal system pre-dating the 1707 union with England) had different law in this matter.^

^This was an appeal after a judgment in favour of the UK government by Lord Doherty (referred to here as the Lord Ordinary). An interesting argument by the petitioners suggested if the court couldn't intervene the "only option to prevent tyranny would be to 'take to the street'."
The petitioners cited examples from 1567, 1660 and 1669 (all before the 1707 union of the parliaments of Scotland and England) to make their case.^

And so to the decision. In the opinion of the presiding judge, indeed Scotland's senior judge, the Lord President, Lord Carloway, a prime minister asking a monarch to use her prerogative COULD be reviewed by the courts in certain circumstances.

"If the reasons for the decision were based upon legitimate political considerations, including a desire to see that Brexit occurs, they would not be challengeable. However, that is not the contention..." writes Lord Carloway.

Rather, the contention is that the prime minister did not provide the true reasons for prorogation. "The real reason, it is said, is to stymie Parliamentary scrutiny of Government action." In this, Lord Carloway effectively finds, Boris Johnson was not being truthful.

It's notable that Lord Carloway opines that this is not because of "any speciality of Scots constitutional law," but from applying "the principles of democracy and the rule of law", citing a case from the UK Supreme Court. With an appeal to the UKSC expected, that is interesting.

The Lord President goes on... "The circumstances demonstrate that the true reason for the prorogation is to reduce the time available for Parliamentary scrutiny of Brexit at a time when such scrutiny would appear to be a matter of considerable importance..."

The judge summarises the reasons why he doesn't believe the prime minister. Among them: the “clandestine" manner of seeking prorogation; its "extraordinary length”; the lack of explanation to the court; the tenor both of the PM’s remarks to, and of the discussions in, cabinet.

Lord Carloway dismisses the claim that party conference season meant only a few extra days would be lost by prorogation, arguing that it would ordinarily be covered by a recess set by parliament itself not by prorogation. Full reasons here (from 53):
t.co/E3SXwXCejp?amp=1

The court, says Lord Carloway, "is not dictating the days on which Parliament should sit. That is a matter for Parliament to decide. It is merely holding that a particular attempt to restrict the available days is unlawful."

^Lord Carloway concludes "prorogation...is unlawful and thus
null and of no effect." As you can see I will have to grab a refill before I set out on the opinions of the other two judges. If anyone is interested?^

Hardly a clamour but I will continue with Lord Brodie.

Lord Brodie refers to arguments "both interesting and stirring about a particularly Scottish tradition of holding the Crown...to account" although the lawyer had not "actually identified any material differences between the applicable Scots law and the corresponding English law".

^Lord Brodie says he agrees with Lord Doherty that the Claim of Right Act 1689 (much discussed in this case) is too vague to provide a basis for overturning any particular prorogation of parliament.
This is the headline, which we already knew from the summary of the judgment, from Lord Brodie's opinion: the purpose of prorogation was to dodge parliamentary scrutiny and allow the government "to pursue a policy of no deal Brexit without further Parliamentary interference."
Part of Lord Brodie's reasoning: the PM's professed principal policy objective was Brexit by Hallowe'en "irrespective of the consequences of such a withdrawal" and a sitting parliament "presents the potential to interfere" with that. See point 89.^
t.co/E3SXwXCejp?amp=1

Lord Brodie says both the secrecy and the length of prorogation was significant as were Mr Johnson's cabinet discussions about the importance of "messaging".

^Lord Brodie says political manoeuvres are not necessarily justiciable but "when the manoeuvre is quite so blatantly designed 'to frustrate Parliament' at such a critical juncture in the history of the United Kingdom...the court may legitimately find it to be unlawful."
Interestingly Lord Brodie also makes his case by referring to a Supreme Court judgment, this one by the (now retired) Lord Sumption who, as it happens, has been on the airwaves this week arguing that these cases are political not justiciable.^

^Finally from Lord Brodie, he just thinks the government has gone too far here. "I see this as an egregious case," he opines.
OK. No wine left but here's Lord Drummond Young.^

Spoiler alert. He agrees with the other two.

Lord Drummond Young points out that government counsel acknowledged that there may be cases when prorogation of parliament was a matter for the courts.

The judge also makes the point that, in his view, the party conference issue is a red herring in assessing the length of prorogation as it would normally be dealt with by recess which could be revoked by parliament "at any time".

^"The effect of proroguing Parliament," writes Lord Drummond Young "is to prevent, or at least to limit severely, the ability of Parliament to perform its essential function of holding the executive to account."
Like his fellow judges, Lord Drummond Young is unimpressed by what he sees as a lack of credible explanation for prorogation from Downing Street, writing that "no attempt is made...to explain why a prorogation of five weeks is necessary at a time of acute national controversy."^

Lord Drummond Young goes on: "...the government, and the Prime Minister in particular, wished to restrict debate in Parliament for as long as possible..."

In conclusion, the judge writes, there was "not a proper purpose for proroguing Parliament."

Final points. It's my impression that Lord Drummond Young attaches more importance to 17th century law in this case than do his fellow judges. And he too quotes case law from the UK Supreme Court where this is all now heading. ENDS (having run out of wine quite some time ago).

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1172252249667592193.html
Thread reader version with extracts from the judgement.

If you read this, with the blog from Professor Mark Elliott, you can't help but lean towards the Supreme Court upholding the Scottish decision.

However they may take a completely different view yet.

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chomalungma · 14/09/2019 10:24

Like his fellow judges, Lord Drummond Young is unimpressed by what he sees as a lack of credible explanation for prorogation from Downing Street, writing that "no attempt is made...to explain why a prorogation of five weeks is necessary at a time of acute national controversy

Even if there was no credible explanation, isn't it the PMs right to ask to prorogue Parliament and the Queen has to do what he asks.

This is what I don't know - and I suspect hasn't ever had to be asked before. It may be morally wrong. He may want to shutdown Parliament to stymie discussion.

But is that actually unlawful?

BlackeyedGruesome · 14/09/2019 10:27

Due to my condition, I am at more risk of osteoporosis. I guess that lifting 37 kilos of autistic boy around would count as weight bearing.? Grin

Hope your mum gets relief from her meds and there are no supply issues.

prettybird · 14/09/2019 10:28

Quick check of Wiki for a crude analysis says that 53.2% voted for parties that explicitly didn't want No Deal (Labour, LibDems, SNP, Greens, Plaid Cymru and Sinn Fein) in contrast to 45.1% who would go with No Deal (Conservative, UKIP and DUP assuming that DUP didn't rule out No Deal in their manifesto ). I'm sure some of the 1.7% that isn't specified in the Wiki summary will include groups like the SDLP, the Alliance and Lady Hermon to take that percentage up to 54% Grin

prettybird · 14/09/2019 10:30

Posted James Cook's thread twice yesterday Red - first time just as a link but 2nd time copies and pasted it in full as I said it warranted reading Wink

chomalungma · 14/09/2019 10:32

but 2nd time copies and pasted it in full as I said it warranted readin

It's quite interesting reading the court judgement in full. I would love to be a person in the street asking Boris Johnson some of those things from the report in quite some detail. He would probably try to get away.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 14/09/2019 10:33

My reading is that using prorogation for political purposes maybe acceptable in certain circumstances but

  1. you can’t lie to the Monarch and Parliament about why you want it
  2. a prolonged shut down, with no reasonable explanation, at a time of political crisis starts to look like an attempt to prevent the proper operation of Parliament and potentially undermines the constitutional roles and the Rule of Law.
DadDadDad · 14/09/2019 10:41

Hard to summarise nuanced legal argument, but Chazs, I think that captures the key points as I read it.

Or to over-simplify: "it ain't what you do, it's the way that you it." Grin

Peregrina · 14/09/2019 11:02

He may want to shutdown Parliament to stymie discussion.

But is that actually unlawful?

I imagine that it doesn't go against the letter of the law, but it certainly goes against the spirit.

Not only that, what counts is not necessarily what is the case, but what people believe to be the case. There is sufficient evidence that people know Johnson prorogued for his own ends - either he ought to be in Brussels negotiating or he ought to be in Parliament sorting out his mess, but he ought not to be electioneering in South Yorkshire.

RedToothBrush · 14/09/2019 11:11

Sorry pretty. I was running around a lot yesterday.

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