The Brexit Arms

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Hold the line Brexiters!!

Nearly there...

Only 53 days to go!

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Oh, and FWIW, I'm in the 'just bloody sign the WA so we can avoid no deal and fucking move on' camp. I'm being devil's advocate here. I'm generally quite pragmatic, I'm just giving an alternate opinion!

Arf fluffy! Nice try

Dusty, I'd bloody take the deal! It's no deal I want to avoid.

September, do an advanced search on my name. You'll see I've been advocating signing the WA for ages.

Of course we can - and should - ignore people who want no deal.

That’s just incredibly arrogant and unhelpful

The fact is, they voted to leave with a deal on the referendum.

That’s not a fact - many people knew so little about the mechanics of leaving a ‘deal’ didn’t come into it

So here's your deal, do you want it or not? If you don't, we stay.

Again, more ‘I don’t agree with your choice so let’s revert to mine’ even though you’ve done nothing to convince anyone you are right, in fact the opposite - Leavers are even more determined now

Even those who did presume we’d get a good deal generally would have no deal than remain

I’m beyond frustrated with how arrogant and dismissive some Remainers still are of any option or solution they don’t agree with so Leavers must be furious, which just makes them dig in further

DustyDiamond, having a different opinion to you does not make somebody deranged. Are you a bloke? I'm assuming so, as I attributing sexism and misogyny to your opinion on Ms Soubry.

Not a bloke, no.

Are you? One of those beardy, lefty, woke types who likes berating women for presumed transgressions?

It's not sexist or misogynistic to comment sarcastically or disparagingly on another person's performance or behaviour.

I am just as disparaging of male MPs as I am of females MPs.

Confected outrage is par for the course with anti-brexit types though, so I'm not especially surprised at your comment tbh.

If MPs were honest about the 'just check the public are happy with proposed deal' spin, then they'd take Remain off the table
Deal or no deal
That they don't betrays their true motivation

Democracy isn't just for one day, people can change their minds or come of age.

If (highly unlikely) there is another vote, it should be held as a legally binding vote and subject to all the usual standards applied to a GE.

Personally, i think a PV is the only way out, a GE could easily end up with another hung Parliament or even a Lab/LD/SNP govt and we could end up revoking....as much as i'd like that, it would pee off a large number of people, if brexitiers are confident of their argument, they win again.

I'm in the 'just bloody sign the WA so we can avoid no deal and fucking move on' camp

But even that doesn’t necessarily avoid no deal, it just kicks it further down the road

Even those who did presume we’d get a good deal generally would have no deal than remain

You've hit the nail on the head here Bear.

Deal every time for me over no-deal, but it's no-deal over Remain.

If you think Yellowhammer is the worst case scenario, you need to grow up. It was the average possible bad stuff. The really bad and hopefully less possible bad stuff isn't in there. That would be the Black Swan stuff.
And yes, Bear, I asked @mummmy2017 if she wanted no Deal yesterday.
I presume you at least have read the papers and the "hysterical-fantasy-that-no-one- is- thinking-about-because -the-DUP-don't-like-it-and- everyone- has-discarded-so-it-is -ridiculous-to-talk-about-it" ... is still being discussed. Where the DUP has conceded some elements of alignment with Ireland via EU regulations are needed.

Bear, you don't have very good comprehension skills.

The leave literature DID say we'd leave with a deal. No deal WAS NOT mentioned during the campaign. A 'smooth and orderly' Brexit is what was promised.

And I'm giving leavers options: WA as it stands or NI-only backstop. Two valid choices.

But I really just wish they'd sign the damn WA so we can get past this problem. Once we've actually left, tensions will reduce and the country can try to move on. We simply cannot carry on like this.

Barely anyone cared before the referendum, and now it's all that's talked about. Aren't we all just battle-fatigued by the entire thing?

I'm definitely not a bloke, Dusty. I just think calling somebody 'deranged' for having a different opinion (particularly when that person is a woman) is typical of a misogynist, that's all.

Apologies for reading your tone wrong. I don't apologise for calling you out on it though.

Democracy isn't just for one day, people can change their minds or come of age.

A fundamental pillar of democracy is losers consent.

You cannot just ignore & rerun results you don't like and still expect democracy to function.

Knowing what we know now about the implications, why would anyone support a no deal exit?

Thank goodness for the Benn Bill.

Part of me thinks 'Fuck it. Let them see what no deal is like.' (Which I think is where bear is at.) But I just can't bring myself to wish that on society, even if people think they want it (and once it happens, it's too late to then go, 'Oops, this isn't what I wanted / expected. Fuck!').

Once we've actually left, tensions will reduce and the country can try to move on. We simply cannot carry on like this

No we won't, we'll still be arguing about this for years to come.

We will have a 2 year transition period, we've sorted nothing in the last 3 years and we'll sort nothing in the next 2 years, we'll be asking for an extension of the transition period......

NI, frictionless trade, FS, Agri, fishing & citizens rights all need adding in to any FTA ++++++++ or whatever we call it.

This sort of FTA will take years to reach and then of course, we'll have increasing demands to rejoin.....

No deal WAS NOT mentioned during the campaign

The Remain campaign (and DC himself) repeatedly said that a vote to leave was potentially a vote to revert to WTO rules.

It's ironic really that the 'no-deal' scenario was made explicit by the Remainers rather than Leavers but life is funny like that I suppose.

If we leave without a deal there will be no transition period.

But we can sign the WA and then have a GE.

The parties can then campaign on the future relationship. LDs I assume will be fast track return, Labour, a soft Brexit (but I'm not sure) and the Conservatives, a hard Brexit (I assume).

I'm simply trying to avoid no deal. I don't think revoke / remain is realistic right now. But if we've actually left with the WA, the leave vote will have been honoured and those people won't still think that their vote is being ignored. That's where so much tension comes in.

A fundamental pillar of democracy is losers consent

Absolutely, which why we have regular GE's, not everything promised in a winning manifesto is enacted.

You cannot just ignore & rerun results you don't like and still expect democracy to function

The govt has tried hard to implement the result, HoC voted it down 3 times, we know realise the problems with NI and our reliance on imports.
Other countries that have had following on referendums have not slide into dictatorships ie France, Denmark and Ireland - indeed, Switzerland ignored a legally binding one because they didn't like the result...no re-run

Having another vote will not mean President Corbyn and the abolition of Parliament.

Bear, you don't have very good comprehension skills.

And that’s exactly the kind of comment that got us into this mess - patronising and condescending.

My comprehension is just fine thank you

If you want to argue that all Leavers always assumed there would be a great deal and would rather remain if that doesn’t happen then why are there so many who do not support that comment

You can argue all you like about what was and wasn’t said prior to the referendum, the only ‘fact’ is people choose to interpret it however it suited them

Failing to acknowledge that and just ignoring the opinions of anyone who doesn’t agree with you hasn’t exactly worked so far has it?

And I'm giving leavers options: WA as it stands or NI-only backstop. Two valid choices.

Again, more arrogance - it is not within you power to ‘give’ Leavers anything.

And yes, Bear, I asked @mummmy2017 if she wanted no Deal yesterday.

So what did you think would miraculously have changed overnight?

I presume you at least have read the papers and the "hysterical-fantasy-that-no-one- is- thinking-about-because -the-DUP-don't-like-it-and- everyone- has-discarded-so-it-is -ridiculous-to-talk-about-it" ... is still being discussed. Where the DUP has conceded some elements of alignment with Ireland via EU regulations are needed.

If you mean the article in the DM, yes I’ve read it. But given Arlene Foster has denied it and it doesn’t involve NI Leaving the CU and doesn’t solve the fact it would break up the union, I’m not pinning any hopes on it.

If you want to argue that all Leavers always assumed there would be a great deal and would rather remain if that doesn’t happen then why are there so many who do not support that comment

Nope. Didn't say that.

I said that the Leave campaign explicitly campaigned on the basis that we would leave with a deal. Therefore, even if people didn't read that bit, that IS what was offered / voted for.

And, I said that polls show that most leavers want a deal. But a small majority, when offered remain or no deal, go for no deal (it's in the 50-something % figure, from memory).

Part of me thinks 'Fuck it. Let them see what no deal is like.' (Which I think is where bear is at.)

My position is not actually that malicious although I accept that it ends up in the same place.

I just don’t see any other option given that no dealers and even most Leavers who’d prefer a deal but would choose no deal over Remain, think that it’ll all be fine.

We’ll never heal the division if we try and remove that option.

Proving the outcome one way or another and dealing with the fall out ASAP seems to me to be the only sustainable option.

The WA route is going to end up back here at the end of the transition period when we’ve done fuck all about preventing the backstop being invoked on account of the fact we’re still assuming we’d get our cake and eat it trade deal

Plus Scotland would be off by then too