The Brexit Arms

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Hold the line Brexiters!!

Nearly there...

Only 53 days to go!

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Howabout

Yes i know that, i just don't get what you re pulling me up on?

CofS is Scotlands highest court but bows to the Supreme court in London..... hence the appeal.

Strange place Scotland. Bang on about independence from UK, but want to be in a union that makes them controlled by Brussels.

Perhaps they realise that being in the EU is not synonymous with being "controlled by Brussels" and perhaps, given the lack of regard and respect shown for rUK by English politicians and, sadly, citizens (not all, granted), they'd rather be in a union where they would not be viewed as an irritating, inferior colony with some handy oil reserves?

FWIW, I know one of the judges at the Court of Session.
He's a Tory through and through, and certainly not a Remainer. He is, however, fiercely intelligent and conscientious, thoroughly aware of the responsibilities he has to bear and a consummate professional. The idea that the most senior judges in the Scottish courts are biased is inaccurate and insulting. (see above re attitudes that might encourage Scots to think EU member states are better partners to be in a union with than England...)

@AuldOilance

How does Scotland become independent by leaving one union to join another

Mystery - no one unfortunately but hopefully sense will prevail and no one will be stupid enough to allow it to happen. Leaving the EU is to no ones benefit but leaving via a no deal would be economic suicide.

To many people the 21 look like traitors/quislings.
Doesn't that sort of language worry you?

twofingerstoEverything Of course that kind of language worries me. I believe in the fundamental honour and goodness of public servants. But it is all about optics.

How does it look when Tony Blair is advising Macron to hold firm on Brexit: www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair-tells-emmanuel-macron-14118053
uk.news.yahoo.com/tony-blair-secretly-advising-french-president-emmanuel-macron-keep-britain-eu-145430104.html
Or
www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/09/10/tony-blair-peter-mandelson-pulling-strings-remain-alliance/:
"Tony Blair and Peter Mandelson are ‘pulling the strings’ behind the Remainer alliance by giving proxy advice to Labour and Lib Dem MPs, it has been claimed. The former prime minister and his New Labour sidekick, once dubbed the ‘Prince of Darkness’, are understood to be at the centre of cross-party attempts to block Brexit, including last week’s passing of a Bill to prevent no-deal. A source told The Telegraph: “Blair and Mandelson are pulling the strings. Mandelson is the puppet master, he has had meetings via proxy with all the parties involved in the Remain alliance and sends emails with ideas. Blair’s people have been speaking to Jo Swinson’s people.”

Or Amber Rudd resigns because 90% of planning is going on No Deal. What has been happening for the last 3 1/2 years? Was there no proper No deal planning as the plan was always to obstruct/cancel Brexit?

How do the rebel alliance know what is being negotiated? Who is leaking it ? How did they know the EU would be receptive to the Benn Bill?

Why did Phillip Hammond receive advice from EU lawyers : order-order.com/2019/09/03/philip-hammond-admits-receiving-legal-advice-eu/

That is just a small sample, but the accidental and I hope not deliberate undermining of the Governments position is what is pushing us towards a constitutional crisis.
Tony Benn said "I have five questions that I ask people who have power, and I recommend them to the House. If I see someone who is powerful, be it a traffic warden, Rupert Murdoch, the head of a trade union or a Member of Parliament, I ask myself these five questions:

What power have you got?
Where did you get it?
In whose interests do you exercise it?
To whom are you accountable?
How can we get rid of you?

Leaving the EU is to no ones benefit but leaving via a no deal would be economic suicide

Remembering that no EU member has left the EU before, where does the crystal ball come from that predicts the future without any previously experienced hindsight?

It doesn’t take a crystal ball to see the disaster it is in leaving the EU and even more so via a no deal. The government won’t release the Project Yellowhammer report because it is so bad.

Perhaps they realise that being in the EU is not synonymous with being "controlled by Brussels" and perhaps, given the lack of regard and respect shown for rUK by English politicians and, sadly, citizens (not all, granted), they'd rather be in a union where they would not be viewed as an irritating, inferior colony with some handy oil reserves?

This.

In the EU the Scotland would have as much of a voice/vote as any other EU nation.

Mystery How does Scotland become independent by leaving one union to join another
Being in a union doesn't mean you're not independent. I'm in a trades union. I am also independent. Does that blow your mind?

Mystery
If Scotland votes for independence, it becomes independent from the union with England, Wales and NI.
That is the independence many seek.

Being part of the EU, a union whose core values are fundamentally those of many Scots and are increasingly absent from the political landscape in Westminster, is not incompatible with a desire no longer to be part of the increasingly unsatisfactory UK union.

I appreciate that it is perhaps unthinkable for some south of the border that independence for Scotland boils down to not being shackled to and constrained by England any longer, while remaining within the EU is not an unpalatable prospect. It is nonetheless the case.

Sorry, glitch and repost.
You get my drift.

But it gives me the opportunity to smile at your misspelling of my name...

Gah, not a repost after all...
MN is acting oddly on my laptop tonight.
Sorry.

Bellehathor.

Thank you for that timely reminder of where power comes from.

Two the eu isn't just a trades union.

The eu is now (morphed since inception) a social and political union.

So it's more like saying, your in a union that dictates how many people you have to invite into your home, what they do to you, what they take, what colur you paint your house and then, you pay them your wages, and you might desperately need a new washing machine.... But they give you you a fablus, new garden arch for your cultural stimulation.

Government are now saying Project Yellowhammer will be on Gov.uk this evening and that a room full of people are working on it. Why does it take a room full of people to release a document which already exists? Boris up to his tricks again?

Being in a union doesn't mean you're not independent. I'm in a trades union. I am also independent. Does that blow your mind?

Indeed!
Should England leave the UK to be fully independent then?

September
The comment about trade unions was an analogy.
As you also just made a lengthy analogy involving shades of paint, you're clearly capable of identifying one.

The point, lest it had escaped anyone, is that a desire for independence from the union with rUK and a desire for EU membership are not incompatible or illogical aims, as suggested on here.

Slovakia and the Czech Republic contrived to become both independent states from one another after having been united and individual members of the EU without anyones's brain exploding.

Should leave the UK to be fully independent then?

England Leave the UK?

A country can leave the EU because there will still be a union left after they'd gone.

But a country can't LEAVE the UK - that would imply that there is some UK left after the event. There are only two members of the UK.

That would be like getting a divorce and still considering yourself married to the person you just left.

Having said that we'll race you to the door.

jasjas you have very helpfully characterised what I am pulling you up on. You and others are implying that the Court of Session, as the Scottish Supreme court, will be "bowing" to some supranational / English legal system, by referring to the UK Supreme Court. This is NOT the case. Scotland is part of the UK and the UK Supreme Court is thus part of the Scottish Legal system.

Under the characterisations drawn by you and others it would be pretty odd for Scottish courts to have any locus at all over Westminster. If Scotland ever becomes independent this will indeed be the case. Another instance of careful what you wish for.

For anyone still struggling:

www.supremecourt.uk/about/uk-judicial-system.html

"For historical reasons, as a state made up of several separate jurisdictions, the United Kingdom does not have a single unified legal system.

Instead, there is one system for England and Wales, another for Scotland, and a third for Northern Ireland.

In most cases, The Supreme Court sits above all of these as the final court of appeal."

Just to clarify further, the legal systems have always been separate. The separation and intersections are NOT part of the Devolution settlement.

(Sorry for the massive "personsplaining" but you did ask repeatedly)

"So it's more like saying, your in a union that dictates how many people you have to invite into your home, what they do to you, what they take, what colur you paint your house and then, you pay them your wages, and you might desperately need a new washing machine.... But they give you you a fablus, new garden arch for your cultural stimulation."

Gosh! that sounds awfully familiar - Barnett Formula anyone?

Sorry, i still don't get it!

As you say, the SC sits above the Court of Session, as far as i was concerned, that's what i said.... i don't think i implied the English system is in some way superior to the Scottish system.

Anyhow, i think we should leave it there?

The SC can and probably will, over rule the CoS..... don't know why but i'm not 100% comfortable with the courts overruling BJ in this.... but i honestly can't explain it.

AuldAlliance who was impugning Scottish judges? I thought people were just debating their subservience or lack thereof? There are Scottish judges on the UK Supreme Court. There is also a Northern Irish and even a Welsh one.

Scotland voted 62% to remain in the EU. So biased for 62% sure

Mystery's post today at 15:41:27

The SC can and probably will, over rule the CoS..... don't know why but i'm not 100% comfortable with the courts overruling BJ in this....

Agree with you on both counts.

Sorry if I misunderstood you, in particular. "Bowing" has unfortunate connotations when discussing Scotland's position within the UK.

don't know why but i'm not 100% comfortable with the courts overruling BJ in this.... but i honestly can't explain it.

Jasjas - I'm a leaver, but even if I was a remainer, or neutral on the subject, I would want the courts to not rule against BJ's prorogation.

It's for the same reason that I've been against every court case brought against govt during the Brexit saga.

That is, that I think politics should not be interfered with by the courts.
We don't have a codified constitution to judge things against & I think that is generally a good thing overall.

The constant legal challenges against political decisions are damaging & ultimately reductive & restrictive

I can't articulate my position properly, sorry! But I've tried to as best I can!