Any more Leave supporters on MN?

[SacrebleuLondres]

I've not been on here for a while.

I'm seeing only anti Brexit threads on here.

Any Leave voters out there?

What do we have to look forward to when we Brexit?

[SacrebleuLondres]

@Peregrina

I think part of the problem is most don't know how courts work. Or even how the UK courts use the ECJ.

The ECJ as far as I can tell seems to be viewed as some sort of enforcement body as opposed to a judiciary body. It's odd.

[jasjas1973]

I don't think even the most ardent tory could make any comparison with hog loving DC and Thatcher....
and this from someone who could never stand her or what she stood for.

DC didn't negotiate, didn't demand, didnt ask for much at all but even then, he got 4/5ths of what he wanted, he is possibly the UKs worst ever PM.

[time4chocolate]

Negotiation doesn't seem to be one of the Tories strong points

[jasjas1973]

Very true, even with themselves!

[SacrebleuLondres]

@time4chocolate

There is no negotiation.

The EU is an international treaty organisation set up by its members. It doesn't have the authority to negotiate anything other than what flexibility it has in its treaties.

What is it that can be negotiated other than a treaty that abides by the EU's other treaty obligations?

[Coppersulphate]

For goodness sake Peregrina,
We have had this debate many times.

I object, in principle, to having the ECJ being able to overrule our UK courts.
I want laws made here and upheld here.
I am not talking about individual laws. I am talking about the principle of the thing.
International laws are completely different and you know it.

[SacrebleuLondres]

@Coppersulphate

Can you cite a case where the ECJ has overruled a UK court?

Hint: the answer is zero because that's not how the ECJ works.

It's not actually POSSIBLE for the ECJ to overrule a UK court because it doesn't work in the way you imply or think it does.

[Coppersulphate]

Jasjas,
Leaving the EU is the best idea this century.

When Michael Gove was Secretary of State at DEFRA he gave an undertaking that the govt would extend the ban on neonics after Brexit.

Currently the beekeeping lobby in this country is strong.
However the main threats to honey bees are not neonics but loss of habitat, Asian hornets (which I think are already here) and viruses. The govt are concerned because of the need for pollination.

[Peregrina]

I don't know why International Law is different - as far as I can see the principle is very much the same. For example we are part of the UN, which has law making functions.

[SacrebleuLondres]

@Coppersulphate

Here's an extract from the Law Society website. There's no overruling that is possible. The UK courts use the ECJ for interpretation.

Hope this helps.


What sorts of cases does the ECJ rule on?
The ECJ can hear cases from the national courts through the 'preliminary ruling' system. This involves a national court referring a question on the interpretation of EU law to the ECJ. The ECJ decides the correct interpretation and sends the case back to the national court for a final decision. It is still up to the national court to decide issues of its own nation's laws.

[Span1elsRock]

I voted Leave. Still would. I don't buy into Project Fear, never did.

I think there will be a few years of uncertainty. But there will be better the other side, that I'm sure of.

The sooner we are free from the corrupt shackles of the EU, the better.

[time4chocolate]

There is no negotiation

Well if that's the case then why the surprise that we find ourselves in a 'no deal' situation.

[lonelyplanetmum]

i don't believe Copper is on about the ECJ again. Why don’t posters learn from previous threads?

The ECJ does not overrule our own courts- we refer a very small number of cases to it. On a previous thread I worked out the stats.

Our own courts handle a TOTAL of at least 3,822,536 UK cases per year. This is taking all cases from High court, Supreme Court, Court of Appeal, Tribunals,County, Crown, Magistrates.

So millions of cases controlled unilaterally by UK courts every year. Millions.

The remit of the ECJ (and the EU) was always very limited to certain topic areas where we delegated joint control.

In the 13 years 2003–2016 there were only 63 judgments referred to the ECJ on UK infringements.

This is 4.9 UK cases per year. Just under half (29) of those related to the environment.

So on average the ECJ had delegated agreed ‘control’ over the UK in 63 cases over a 13 year period. Compared to our own courts having control over 3,822,536 cases per year. That is 0.00012 % of our cases. Why did the press bang on about the ECJ for years, and why do we not have a better perspective on this? It’s weird.

Surely that tiny amount of cases is worth it for unrestricted access to a market on our doorstep worth $18.8 trillion of 500 million consumers That trade is worth putting up with a small amount of limited cases a year -especially when there are British ECJ judges deciding over other countries handful of cases too.

[Clavinova]

2016 The Prime Minister secured agreement with his European counterparts at the March European Council to welcome the intention of the Commission to enable increased flexibility for member states with respect to zero and reduced rates of VAT.

HMRC were ahead of themselves with the good news...

Research Briefings July 8, 2019:

In October 2015 the Government confirmed it would seek a change in EU law to allow any rate of VAT to be applied to sanitary protection, as part of a review of EU VAT rates to be undertaken by the European Commission in 2016.

In March 2016 the European Council confirmed that the Commission’s initiative would “include proposals for increased flexibility for Member States with respect to reduced rates of VAT, which would provide the option to Member States of VAT zero rating‎ for sanitary products.”

The next month the Commission published its ‘VAT Action Plan’, including plans to modernise the EU legal framework for VAT rates, although no definitive proposals were published at the time.

The Government included provision in the Finance Bill 2016 to allow for sanitary protection to be zero-rated, once the UK had discretion to do this.

When debated in Committee Treasury Minister David Gauke said that the Government anticipated the zero rate being in place by 1 April 2017.

but as yet the Government have been unable to give a definitive date in the absence of any amendment in the EU VAT rules.

In January 2018 the European Commission finally published proposals to overhaul the EU rules on VAT rates

The current, complex list of goods and services to which reduced rates can be applied would be abolished and replaced by a new list of products.

"To safeguard public revenues, Member States will also have to ensure that the weighted average VAT rate is at least 12%"

There is no firm timetable for these proposals to be agreed

The EU have delayed until January 2022 at the earliest.

The link does say, "there is considerable uncertainty as to their relevance for the UK’s discretion in setting VAT rates, given the outcome of the EU referendum and the Government’s decision in March 2017 to trigger Article 50..." but we don't really know if we are leaving the EU yet.

researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN01128

[Coppersulphate]

Lonely, as I told you on previous threads....63 cases is 63 too many.
And yes, it is worth leaving the single market and the customs union and all of the other things for.

Independence and self determination are worth far more than markets of any kind.

[SistemaAddict]

Worth more than the sanctity of the GFA?

[woman19]

They don't believe in the sanctity of human life or human rights Bercows

I feel sorry for them.

[Ohflippineck]

SingingLily

“can't go into details, obviously, but I know Yellowhammer for what it is. A plan to deal with the ifs and maybes. We will cope.”

Obviously.
Please be honest, even the heartiest advocates of no deal are finally admitting that the “bumps in the road” - or mountains to climb/bloody great sink holes as they’ve variously been described - are now widely recognised certainties, not ifs and maybes.
I’m very pleased you will cope. So will we because our work is secure, we’re nearing retirement, we have an home large enough to accommodate extended family should the need arise and I have been preparing for some time so we will eat reasonably well, supplement as required and manage our medical needs.
My kids always loved school holidays, longer the better, fantastic. What childhood ought to be about. Reported this morning on Today that there are tens of thousands of children up and down the land who eagerly anticipate the return in September because it will mean they stop being hungry and have somewhere warm to be indoors during the day.
Will you please explain to me how their families will cope when food prices increase by the conservatively estimated 10 % and the cost of fuel, if supplies are interrupted/limited in some parts of the country as anticipated, soars out of the reach of those already on the breadline.
Or don’t they matter? Because you will cope.

[StitchingMoss]

This thread is truly fucking terrifying

[Clavinova]

Bercows
Worth more than the sanctity of the GFA?

Boris Johnson has says he wants to leave the EU with a deal but he is preparing for 'no-deal'.

They don't believe in...human rights

Quite a few remain posters want to chuck people out of the country if they haven't found a job within 3 months - that doesn't sound very friendly to me either.

[woman19]

Quite a few remain posters want to chuck people out of the country if they haven't found a job within 3 months - that doesn't sound very friendly to me either

Citation?

I am going to choose to forgive those who are threatening to hurt our kids and elderly and our GFA.......for the moment.

People can change.

Hand of peace Clavinova.

[BubblesBuddy]

63 cases on which clarity is sought is fine. The Law doesn’t have to begin and end here if there are wider issues to consider. It is difficult to find anyone with a professional legal background who dislikes the ECJ. The EU Court of Human Rights mostly agrees with our Rulings too. Anyone who thinks our Judges are bothered by the EU Courts reads the Daily Mail too much. Our justice system is rarely overruled.

In fact, the last time I looked, the Chancellor set out the VAT tax levels too. It’s often in the Budget. That long speech about our taxes set by our Government!

Why do Leavers think we are ruled by the EU? Decades of unrelenting criticism by newspapers and noisy politicians who have jumped on a few odd decisions or simply lied.

Does our Parliament, Government and Judiciary do nothing every day? Have they no role whatsoever? Do we just put into action what the EU decides or do we mostly decide on our own Laws, Fiscal policy, etc? We do of course accept Directives but in general we have benefitted from them. Leavers just spout a mantra with little evidence to back up what they say. The EU is the whipping boy for anything they perceive to be wrong.

[Lonelycrab]

Utter sense from lonelyplanetmum and bubbles.

[Clavinova]

citation
page 3 on this thread, numerous posters on other threads.

Hand of peace

Of course, - I am quite confident that Boris Johnson will secure a last minute deal to leave the EU - and if he doesn't - I think the government will have robust contingency plans in place, e.g. we know that prescription medicines are being re-routed away from the short straits; reassuring information from Diabetes UK and the Epilepsy Society here:
blogs.diabetes.org.uk/?p=11050
www.epilepsysociety.org.uk/news/Gov-announces-further-measures-medicine-supplies-no-deal-Brexit-27-06-2019

click on individual pharmaceutical companies for contingency plans;
www.epilepsysociety.org.uk/contingency-plans-epilepsy-
medications-case-no-deal-brexit

The yellowhammer document says that the government are not expecting an overall shortage of food, the Northern Ireland cattle cull was fake news, the Chief Minister of Gibraltar says the leaked warnings are out of date and wrong, HMRC say 17,000 companies have successfully applied for TSPs (giving them six months grace to make customs declarations and declare the VAT owed on shipments), the EORI number (which many companies have not yet applied for) is a 10 minute online process and HMRC say they can process 11,000 applications in one day, I don't remember any petrol shortages in 2015 when we had operation stack...

I am surprised that free movement is ending immediately after the 31st October (I'll reserve judgment on that decision) but I am pleased there will be "tougher criminality rules" for those coming to the UK.

[Clavinova]

www.epilepsysociety.org.uk/contingency-plans-epilepsy-medications-case-no-deal-brexit#.XVs0jNFK2Uk