Any more Leave supporters on MN?

[SacrebleuLondres]

I've not been on here for a while.

I'm seeing only anti Brexit threads on here.

Any Leave voters out there?

What do we have to look forward to when we Brexit?

[bellinisurge]

In the last 40 years?
I'm from near Preston. I try not to hold a grudge about the Scottish invasion of Preston. Don't be pedantic.

[bellinisurge]

Scotland is not a conquered nation. Unlike Ireland and Wales.

[Doubletrouble99]

As a Scottish Conservative who was one of 1m Scots who voted leave can I put my two pennith in! If we had a back stop in the Irish Sea this would make NI still have EU rules and regs and be in the single market and customes union where as Scotland would not. That is a massive red line to the Scot Nat. because they would loss business to NI and they want to stay in the EU so would really rub their noses in it. Also any Unionist, which Conservatives are would be against it as it breaks away part of the UK. So Bellini Not only would the Tories and DUP not vote for it neither would the Scot Nats. and I presume many other MPs would too. The Government would never put this to a voter as I say it is against their Unionist beliefs.
So if I see more conclusive evidence of preparation for no deal I would rather go out with no deal.
jewel - I don't know how they intend dealing with movement of people across the land border in Ireland. I do however don't see there being any major problem about people coming over from mainland Europe going to NI especially illegal immigrants.

[bellinisurge]

And you can have your Indyref 2 and vote accordingly. And although tbe sNP number is big in Parliament, other parties are available.

[Bearbehind]

If you think we must No Deal, I can never agree with you. That is nihilism and I can never support it.

Well you’re going to have to hope for a WA fudge as that’s the only get out left now.

[bellinisurge]

The DUP are not the same unionists as Trimble's lot. Not a foregone conclusion that all Tories would hate it.

[bellinisurge]

Mine is a WA fudge. Don't you see that?

[jewel1968]

'I do however don't see there being any major problem about people coming over from mainland Europe going to NI especially illegal immigrants' .

But once in NI they would travel freely to UK wouldn't they?

[Bearbehind]

Mine is a WA fudge. Don't you see that?

No it’s not - a WA fudge will consistent of BJ telling everyone he’s had the WA changed when it’s had a comma removed.

You’re talking about divining the nation - people might notice that one!

[bellinisurge]

An NI only backstop is basically what I am saying.

[Doubletrouble99]

So jewel - who exactly are these people who are going to travel to ROI in a ferry/plane, go across the border into NI and then get another ferry/flight across to Britain? Are they illegal immigrants because if that's who we are trying to protect us against then I think they will still think it must simpler just to get an inflatable across the Channel.

[bellinisurge]

You obviously know very little about what people are prepared to do to get to a place of safety and welfare state provisions.

[Harabek]

I think there is a valid point about immigration in to the UK via NI should no border exist in Ireland in the event of a WTO Brexit.

The UK would for all intents and purposes become an indirect subject to EU and Irish immigration laws.

Ultimately the UK would effectively have to maintain freedom of movement where those migrants who do arrive via NI unregisted and undocumented have no legal standing in the UK.

The implications of this are that those people that did manage to reach the UK would not be entitled to jobs/housing and benefits in which case they would likely be put in detention centres or shipped off to their country of origin.

People traffickers would have a discrete way to move people in to the UK if this loophole isn't closed.

It's why long term having no border is unsustainable, both politically and logically

The only sensible solution is a border down the Irish sea with NI remaining part of the EU in some regard.

[MrPan]

Or just revoke the whole sorry mess.

[Doubletrouble99]

Harabek - you are talking about EU citizens coming over the border then they will have a right to visit as they have now and as we will in the EU in the future. What they won't have maybe is a right to work and can only stay for a limited period so they are hardly going to be thrown into detention centres but would probably be removed if they have overstayed their welcome.
As for people traffickers, well do you really think they will be putting illegals on regular ferries to Ireland then moving them across Ireland to NI to another ferry to Scotland or Wales! How does that work? They would have to find two sets of lorries to hid out in on long ferry crossings. Again I say the channel is the simplest way to go and loads get across that way every year so why stop.

[jewel1968]

Double - but won't it be much simpler to go via ROI across the border and then hop on a plane or ferry It could be anyone from anywhere. It could be an EU citizen that fancies working in UK illegally especially if they have family here. Why use an inflatable? That would be too dangerous and frankly unnecessary.

[Doubletrouble99]

jewel - the point about EU citizens wanting to work when they shouldn't then it's quite clear any employer has to have the correct paperwork from the employee to prove they have the right to work. The employer would also know if their position is one that an EU national would to fill. The only people who come over here in inflatables are illegal immigrants from out with the EU so not relevant.

[bellinisurge]

Peculiar notion you have about undocumented workers.

[jewel1968]

I think you will find that currently there are lots of people who work here illegally and this is likely to increase. Of course good employers will ensure all employees are ligit but others will not as is the case now. As I said this is likely to increase particularly in some sectors e.g. construction and hospitality...

[jewel1968]

So for example an Irish or French carpenter fancies doing some work cash in hand in the UK (maybe even for a short time) has a very easy route into the UK..... No inflatable needed!

[Doubletrouble99]

I've never suggested EU nationals would need to come in an inflatable! At the beginning of this conversation about control of migrants over the ROL/NI border I did say I didn't know how exactly that would be controlled.

[jewel1968]

Therein lies the problem Double. That is the conundrum that is an imponderable.

[ContinuityError]

But, but, but ... we’re taking back control of our borders!

Aren’t we?

[Harabek]

@Doubletrouble99 - people trafficking was one element of my point. I actually think there is a much bigger issue here.

In the short term, your point has some merit, but overtime the widening gap of political and policy mis-alignment would cause too many problems for no border to exist.

Let me throw a scenario at you, what happens if in 18 months/24 months Ireland joins Shengen? One of the main reasons Ireland hasn't done this already is to honour the Common Travel Area agreement - if that is undermined by Brexit, then Ireland has no reason to maintain that stance, as the CTA's integrity is already breached.

How soon would those Calais Camps close up with everyone heading for Ireland?

What if Ireland was to alter it's migration policy for non-EU citizens given them much easier access to Ireland and therefore the UK.

As I implied, the UK would become a defacto extension of Ireland because their foreign/migration policy is one we would have imposed on us without any say.

There are lots of bizarre scenarios that would play out that absolutely demand a border - which if we are honest, is what us Brexiteers want so that we can control our borders.

If the cost of that is NI with a border in the sea - then so be it.

[Doubletrouble99]

Harabek - why on earth would the UK break the CTA? That would particularly hit NI. The idea that ROI would change their immigration rules away from their present ones seems a bit far fetched too to be honest. Control of our borders can be done in other ways rather than a hard border.