The NI border issue can never be resolved can it?

[Bearbehind]

We would have left by now if is wasn’t for the border issue in NI and I genuinely can’t see a positive outcome.

If, 20 years after the GFA, peace is still so fragile a border is incompressible and any other option basically breaks up the union - how can it ever end well?

That is disadvantage of forming a Union with a Country or Countries whose population is much larger than your own

The EU has 28 member and a population of around 500 million. Of that over 40% of the total is; Germany, France and UK, 3 Countries out of 28

Can you give me examples of when the EU has lied to, ignored, backtracked on promises and belittled Scotland? Or how they've done that to the UK?

I'm not comparing the NI issue with Scotland, to be clear. I am very much of the opinion that supporting the GFA and ensuring the peace in NI should be the single most important, red line for all our politicians and any person with so much as a shadow of a conscience. Sadly, I fear the worst and it sickens me.

Agreed that preserving the GFA has absolutely got to be the sole priority going forward. It's the most important part of any of it.

Despite the population majorities of Germany, France and the UK, other individual states have a say and use it. The RoI have repeatedly stalled stalled EU treaties by rejecting them at the ballot box.

"That is disadvantage of forming a Union with a Country or Countries whose population is much larger than your own. England makes up about 85% of the entire UK population. So always a good chance the English opinion/mindset will prevail."
It's not the same as the EU. It just isn't one country like the UK. Apart from Scotland, every other part of the UK is a conquered nation. And I am sure Scotland would have strong words to say about the way England has short changed it, as well.

The fact that the 26 members are standing behind another member state, Ireland, should tell you all you need to know about sticking up for your mates.

the civil rights removal was solely the work of the British government

To be fair to successive British governments, this isn’t true. It was Unionist governments in NI who maintained the property franchise in local elections, gerrymandered electoral boundaries, instituted discriminatory housing practices, brought in the Special Powers Act in perpetuity, etc.

London turned a blind eye, of course, but they weren’t solely responsible.

I really couldn't give a toss what happen's in NI, my country is Scotland i care what happen's here.

Is that comment actually for real? 🤔

{That is disadvantage of forming a Union with a Country or Countries whose population is much larger than your own.}

It is only a disadvantage if the 'majority' take no consideration of the minority.
There is a good chance that this failure to empathise with particularly a significant minority (52/48) will cause massive problems unless a transparent and fair approach is taken. The 'winner takes all' mentality of Westminster stands to be the 'death' of the UK, now, perhaps more than for many years.

@TheEmpireNoMore - That is disadvantage of forming a Union with a Country or Countries whose population is much larger than your own.

Except neither Scotland nor NI formed a voluntary union with England initially. Yes, I know NI came about due to a small minority of the population wishing to remain part of the UK. But the border was set so to maximise land but ensure a high enough protestant majority to ensure dominance. And yes, I know Scottish history is also more complicated.

Being a member of the EU is a voluntary agreement where decisions are made using negotiation. While all decisions are not equally beneficial to all members, each member is considered when making the decisions. It is not simply about doing what is best for the bigger members and fuck the rest.

There is a way to stop this mess and the Backstop never ever needs to be invoked.
The solution is for the UK to leave the EU (which is fairness was what was put to the electorate in 2016 and that was all that was put to them) and to stay in the Customs Union.

Theresa May got it into her head that in order to leave the EU, you have to leave EVERYTHING!!! You don't. It's very simple. You can leave the EU (don't have to take part in the EU elections etc. etc.) and in theory this would deliver on Brexit. She made the call to leave everything. You don't have to. The UK could if someone actually thought about it, decide to leave the EU and still stay in the Customs Union (i.e. no hard border on the island of Ireland ). They are mutually exclusive.

I really couldn't give a toss what happen's in NI, my country is Scotland i care what happen's here.

While I completely disagree and am horrified by this attitude, it's one carried by everyone who voted leave. And that wasn't Scotland as a whole.b

The 'winner takes all' mentality of Westminster stands to be the 'death' of the UK, now, perhaps more than for many years

A break up of UK would be a let down as there is always safety in numbers and as a nation UK is an attractive member to the EU as it is the third largest contributor to the EU pot.

Many remain supporters think that UK by itself has no chance against the rest of the World and will be hammered in trade deal negotiations. So I am not sure why there is all this talk on programs such as QT that all 4 member states should go their own way. As smaller individual Countries are they not going to get an even bigger hammering by going independent and then trying to rejoin the EU or set up trade deals outside the EU

@TheEmpireNoMore - what about the NI border? Distracting with meanders down Leaver Lane are not relevant if there is no solution to the NI border that works.

A break up of UK would be a let down as there is always safety in numbers and as a nation UK is an attractive member to the EU as it is the third largest contributor to the EU pot.

The UK is leaving the EU, that's the whole problem. Scotland and NI don't want to and are being told they don't count. That's England's doing, nobody else's.

As smaller individual Countries are they not going to get an even bigger hammering by going independent and then trying to rejoin the EU or set up trade deals outside the EU

Scotland has already been told that the member states won't stand in the way of joining the EU. NI would likely become part of Ireland, so no need for a new application as Ireland already is a member state. Wales, I don't know tbh.

England joining the EU? Aye that's going to happen. After the blatant xenophobia, lies and bitterness do you really think the EU would entertain it? It requires all member states to agree, and for a start I can't see Ireland or France agreeing. Germany probably wouldn't either.

Now it appears the union is important, it's too late.

The expression be careful who you step on on the ladder up, because you'll have to face them on the way back down springs to mind.

Either that or hoist by their own petard.

Either way, it's the government in Westminster and the rise of the far right in England (which has not happened in the other nations of the UK by a considerable stretch) that has caused this.

Now people and governments are distancing themselves we've suddenly become important?

Pfft.

A customs border in the Irish Sea has been suggested in Westminster.
It has been rejected by the DUP.
As they are propping up the Tory party, which without them wouldn’t have a majority, it seems unlikely to happen.

While I completely disagree and am horrified by this attitude, it's one carried by everyone who voted leave.

Including the 44% of voters who live in Northern Ireland who voted to 'Leave' the EU?

The UK could if someone actually thought about it, decide to leave the EU and still stay in the Customs Union

Lots of people have thought about it -

"Staying in a customs union would be dire for British trade";
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/22/customs-union-trade-policies-steel-garment-imports-brexit

"A Brexit involving staying in the customs union would leave the UK £80bn worse off a year than if it had remained in the EU, a report says."

"The National Institute of Economic and Social Research (NIESR) said tax income would fall by £13bn a year."

"The research was commissioned by the People's Vote campaign for a further EU referendum."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48213055

The UK has said it won't put up a physical border. If the EU chooses to do so is their choice I guess.

@Stillstrawberrywater - The UK has said it won't put up a physical border. If the EU chooses to do so is their choice I guess.

And if the UK don't put a border, all the other WTO countries will be delighted as they must do the same for all.

The UK has said it won't put up a physical border. If the EU chooses to do so is their choice I guess

An enlightening post, thankyou.

@InTheHeatofLisbon - It requires all member states to agree, and for a start I can't see Ireland or France agreeing. Germany probably wouldn't either.

Actually, Ireland probably would vote to allow England to join, provided it was a genuine application. We're not petty, particularly when it's in our economic interest.

The SNP have a magic money tree as well;

2017:
"An independent Scotland would have been up to £10.5 billion worse off than SNP ministers had predicted before the referendum on leaving the UK, official figures show."

"Scotland is relying more on the UK to prop up its finances, with public spending per head north of the border continuing to grow, despite the crash in tax revenues from North Sea oil over the past two years, statistics published yesterday suggest."

"Nicola Sturgeon, the first minister, rejected the accusation that she had tried to “con” voters before the 2014 vote, when the SNP forecast oil revenues of £6.8 billion to £7.9 billion for 2016-17, the first year of independence had there been a “yes” vote."

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scotland-independence-nicola-sturgeon-oil-slump-shows-snp-s-sums-to-be-wrong-by-10-5bn-mr6ngbv7j

2018:
"Nicola Sturgeon has been urged to apologise for misleading the Scottish people during the independence referendum after a new analysis disclosed the extraordinary extent to which the SNP inflated North Sea oil revenues."

"The Labour research, published ahead tomorrow's fourth anniversary of the vote, said the Scottish Government's forecasts for North Sea revenue were up to £30 billion more than the latest official estimates between 2016/17 and the current financial year."

"This is almost the equivalent of the Scottish Government's entire annual budget, which funds the NHS and education system."

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/09/17/nicola-sturgeon-urged-apologise-30-billion-north-sea-oil-lie/

The UK has said it won't put up a physical border. If the EU chooses to do so is their choice I guess.

No. Leavers want to control the UK borders, so it's up to them to do what they voted for. Then they need to own the repercussions, which they won't do, because it's always everyone else's fault.

The UK has said it won't put up a physical border...

Can someone tell me how that's going to be possible without NI becoming the biggest smuggling corridor in northern Europe?

In Clavinova 's view , the 44% in NI who voted Leave matter more than the 48% in the UK that voted to Remain. Which pretty much sums up Clavinova 's analysis.

@woodpigeons , I entirely get that my @border in the sea/NI as special economic zone " doesn't suit the DUP - unless they look closer at the opportunity to stay as a big fish in a small pond - but it is that, WA or Revoke/Remain.

Apart from lots of whining, no Leaver has come up with an alternative. Unless that alternative is No Deal. And I would never support that shit. If the Leave camp can't get someone like me onside, they have no hope of uniting the country.

From Clavinova's inevitable C&P;

"A Brexit involving staying in the customs union would leave the UK £80bn worse off a year than if it had remained in the EU, a report says."

So, there's an easy solution...