The NI border issue can never be resolved can it?

[Bearbehind]

We would have left by now if is wasn’t for the border issue in NI and I genuinely can’t see a positive outcome.

If, 20 years after the GFA, peace is still so fragile a border is incompressible and any other option basically breaks up the union - how can it ever end well?

In Clavinova 's view, the 44% in NI who voted Leave matter more than the 48% in the UK that voted to Remain.

They matter to me in the sense that they are an anomaly - they perhaps indicate that the Irish border problem is less of a problem than some people want it to be.

New low there, @Clavinova . And I thought you were there already.

WhatchaMaCalllit
I don't think Theresa wanted an 'all out' Brexit. Her speeches referred to a strong bond and trading etc, although it wasn't defined I am presuming somewhere up the steps that Mr Barnier drew up.
It was the ERG at the time desperate to get the UK out at all costs to further their aim for disaster capitalistic exploits. Strong ties and trade was not deemed Brexity enough by ERG and Farage.

So far, NO ONE has managed to explain where the UK is going to once it is 'out' of the EU. The USA is not shaping up well as a 'best buddy' and neither is China or Russia. In global trade terms, the UK stands to gradually fade into obscurity unless it can really get it's shit together, and it seems so far that the 'Easiest deals ever' Fox has only just discovered that the USA has many and varied trading regimes, depending on which state you are talking with. A bit of a fundamental cock op there!

Captain Oats is reputed to have said 'I am going out, I may be some time'. The Brexit version of 'out' is beginning to look rather similar.

For once I do understand what clavinova is saying.

An awful lot of people outside NI had no idea about how a Leave vote would affect the border but you have to assume most people in NI did have some idea of the implications as it’s such a big part of their very recent history, yet 44% of people still chose Leave.

Ok it’s less than the overall split but I guess the perception is that if it’s really such a massive issue for the whole of NI wouldn’t the split have been in the 90’s to Remain, like Gibraltar was?

Or is it the case that those who voted Leave in NI didn’t actually think we’d ever need a border because leaving with no deal was never even discussed pre referendum?

@bellinisurge you are right.
While Westminster does not see the importance of the backstop they are not likely to come up with an alternative which is acceptable to the people of both NI and Ireland, and of course the eu.
Possibly such an alternative does not exist.
Technical controls are vaunted as a solution but nobody has explained how they will actually work. It seems they are certainly not ready to be put in place now and won’t be for several years, if at all.
Breaking the GFA, an international peace treaty, will have wide ranging
Implications for the Uk’s reputation, not just with the eu but with other countries they want to trade with. The US has already said they won’t trade with the UK in these circumstances.

Clavinova those articles wouldn't be from The Telegraph that a few months ago touted the oilfields (which they admitted were undervalued 5 years ago) as the saviour of a UK in the event of a no deal brexit?

Forgive me for not taking media aimed at middle England and Tories seriously when it comes to Scotland.

Let's face it, they're hardly known for telling the truth now are they?

The fact is that an independent Scotland would cope. In fact, we'd be better off not shackled to a backwards, selfish, arrogant and elitism administration in Westminster.

It just doesn't suit unionists to say so.

The UK has said it won't put up a physical border

Well obviously, because it can't ffs. It's a tidy wee "but it's not OUR fault" wail too. Only it is their fault, because they fucking caused brexit.

Handy that "controlling the borders", the cornerstone of the leave campaign has suddenly backtracked.

New low there

I don't see why - the group who planted the Derry bomb in January published this statement; “All this talk of Brexit, hard borders, soft borders, has no bearing on our actions..."

I don't see why - the group who planted the Derry bomb in January published this statement; “All this talk of Brexit, hard borders, soft borders, has no bearing on our actions..."

Uh huh. Because they're known for being truthful eh?

Ffs why did they plant a bomb now then if it wasn't brexit? Interesting that they chose Derry too, very significant.

Clavinova those articles wouldn't be from The Telegraph

My first link was to the Times.

The Scotsman has a similar report Sept 2018;

"The SNP should apologise for the growing black hole in the economic prospectus for independence as the shortfall in oil revenues reaches £30 billion, Labour has demanded."

"Projections in the Scottish Government’s White Paper on independence were more than ten times bigger than estimated revenue from taxes on North Sea oil and gas production in each of the past three years."

Just checked, and Ireland and the UK joined the EU on the same day. I assume it was discussed then and the realisation was there that either we both joined or neither joined.

We can't have a border in the sea - that doesn't make any sense at all!

@Bearbehind
An awful lot of people outside NI had no idea about how a Leave vote would affect the border but you have to assume most people in NI did have some idea of the implications as it’s such a big part of their very recent history, yet 44% of people still chose Leave.

I wouldn't necessarily assume that everyone who voted thought about it in depth. They may have believed the leave rhetoric and assumed there was a way of maintaining the status quo (e.g. the mythical technological solution).

Ok it’s less than the overall split but I guess the perception is that if it’s really such a massive issue for the whole of NI wouldn’t the split have been in the 90’s to Remain, like Gibraltar was?

Except the DUP are opposed to the GFA. They and their supporters would be quite happy for it to be scuppered. A no deal would achieve this very nicely.

Or is it the case that those who voted Leave in NI didn’t actually think we’d ever need a border because leaving with no deal was never even discussed pre referendum?

This could also be the case. Most assumed, pre-referendum, a softer brexit similar to Norway+.

Clavinova indeed. The Times, that bastion of championing what exactly?

Middle fucking England.

And don't even get me started on the shitshow that is The Scotsman. Why they're called that when they spout such shite is beyond me.

I don't take unionist papers seriously when they're talking about Scotland. After all, they all championed the Vow and Better Together but haven't said a fucking word about the fact none of the new powers have been devolved 5 years later.

All this wittering about Scotland being worse off. Can't you understand we'll be worse off whatever happens but at least we won't be linked to the far right, xenophobic bullshit that has become English politics?

You probably can't. But that's ok, you don't have to. Because it's not your decision.

@HollowTalk - Just checked, and Ireland and the UK joined the EU on the same day. I assume it was discussed then and the realisation was there that either we both joined or neither joined.

Why would you think that was the case? The UK has never cared about Ireland when making decisions. The UK decided against joining Schengen, with no thought to the NI border. Ireland, despite being in favour of Schengen, did not join in order to ensure the open border was maintained.

Ffs why did they plant a bomb now then if it wasn't brexit?

100th anniversary of Dáil éireann and the Declaration of Irish Independence - 21 January 1919 - the car bomb exploded on the eve of the centenary.

100th anniversary of Dáil éireann and the Declaration of Irish Independence - 21 January 1919 - the car bomb exploded on the eve of the centenary.

So it's nothing to do with Britain or Brexit?

Celebrating Irish independence.

{We can't have a border in the sea - that doesn't make any sense at all!}

Are you referring to a physical location, or a metaphorical one?
Physically it would be the ports at both ends of ferry routes that are 'no man's land', like the 'airside' at airports, where only specified people have access. The dock area in Rotterdam is around 40 Km where it is 'not quite anywhere'. There are customs areas (bonded) at ports and airports where goods are held before taxes are paid to release them.

So it's nothing to do with Britain or Brexit?

It's got quite a lot to do with a small band of thugs and criminals hiding under a banner of convenience...

This thread is going the way the EU wants UK to go. Let the member states battle among themselves, become weaker and then the EU moves in for an easy kill.

A simple copy of Thatcher’s way of defeating the NUm

@Clavinova , your Johnson-esque love of bluster and distraction, as well as your love of cut and paste , does not disguise the fact that No Deal is not compatible with GFA but Brexit via WA was.

Cute @TheEmpireNoMore but ignoring our GFA obligations via No Deal will have only negative consequences.

but Brexit via WA was.
Not without a 'tweak' somewhere.

Should I set a car bomb off in my local town centre to 'celebrate' the Germans being removed in WW2, or maybe instead take a few moments to reflect quietly on the lives of the French resistance lost when they were taken away and murdered by the SS?

What tweak is needed @Clavinova . If it's "remove the backstop ". That's not a tweak. If it's "there is already a technical solution ", that's nonsense.

And yet again for the hard of learning, the WA is the START of the Brexit negotiations. The UK has failed to make it to the start line in 3 years.
With any sort of deal and even with 'no deal' the actual negotiations won't commence until a WA is signed (and there is only 1 on the table) so there is at least another 3 or 4 years of 'negotiation' to come. Better get the popcorn ready.