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Brexit

The NI border issue can never be resolved can it?

458 replies

Bearbehind · 14/07/2019 20:39

We would have left by now if is wasn’t for the border issue in NI and I genuinely can’t see a positive outcome.

If, 20 years after the GFA, peace is still so fragile a border is incompressible and any other option basically breaks up the union - how can it ever end well?

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ChiaraRimini · 15/07/2019 10:25

If Brexit happens it will cause the breakup of the U.K. I don't happen to think that will be a good thing for anyone but I can't see the Scots standing for it, and the NI Assembly hasn't sat for ? How long so devolution has failed there and reunification will be needed to keep the border open in the absence of total failure to negotiate a deal.

bellinisurge · 15/07/2019 10:28

@Bercows , I'm glad you are educating yourself about it. I'm glad you didn't vote Leave with lack of knowledge about it.
I have been prepared to compromise on all sorts over Brexit but not this. I cannot and will not support anything that puts GFA at risk. I will not trust to luck that it will be OK. GFA must be protected. If it can be done and still Brexit, fine. Hence my "border in the sea/make NI a special economic zone " idea as an alternative to WA.
If it can't be protected, we must not Brexit.

SistemaAddict · 15/07/2019 10:30

implantsandaDyson I said I wasn't sure, not that I didn't know. I wanted to be sure of things before potentially making an arse of myself by presuming. Information doesn't stay in my head too well due to the medication I take so I need to read things a few times over to give it any chance of remaining in there. I was brought up to ask if I wasn't sure so that's what I'm doing.

InTheHeatofLisbon · 15/07/2019 10:32

While it is admirable that you and Prettybird have this sentiment, have you thought through the realities of significant immigration?

Yes, it's the cornerstone of the independence campaign and is regularly talked about, with specifics on infrastructure, housing, jobs and what would be needed.

In particular, does it have the wholehearted support of a more than significant majority of Scots and even more important that the Scottish Parliament are fully behind this, in both the will to make the necessary accommodation and the funds to do it?

Again yes, Nicola Sturgeon is open about the fact that as a small nation we need immigration and value the diversity of Scottish society. There are pockets of resentment, mostly from unionists I have to say, but in the main Scotland as a people want to encourage immigration and a richly diverse society because to reject it is inward looking and the polar opposite of progressive.

The MSM in England are keen to paint Scottish nationalists as anti English, as ignorant and xenophobic, because it suits their agenda.

It is, however, unmitigated bullshit.

Scotland encourages immigration, it's taken more than it's share per capita of refugees from the middle east too, and thrives on immigration.

There isn't the housing shortage up here to the extent there is in England, and the education system and NHS while far from perfect are in a stronger position than in other areas of the UK (as evidenced by inspections, results and statistics).

It's easy and lazy to paint Scotland as the poor relation begging for scraps at the table of the English. But it's just not true.

There are campaign groups for Indy 2 run by English people who have made Scotland their home, the marches for independence often have the St George's cross among the flags along with several other nations.

Scotland wants and needs immigration, and we want to be part of the EU.

Did Nicola's open letter to EU nationals living in Scotland not make it to the MSM? I'm not even slightly surprised.

InTheHeatofLisbon · 15/07/2019 10:34

I have no time for ignorance, particularly my own, so I make it my business to find out.

I feel like this too, I wish more people did!

Bercows I think you're right to ask, I know I do if it's something I don't understand. To be honest I wish more people did instead of navel gazing and parroting Tommy sodding Robinson et al.

bellinisurge · 15/07/2019 10:35

I used to be anti-Scotland's independence. I genuinely felt we were Better Together as a member together of the EU.
As always, it's up to the people of Scotland. But it wouldn't surprise me if a second vote went a different way.

SistemaAddict · 15/07/2019 10:39

Thank you InTheHeatofLisbon.

TheEmpireNoMore · 15/07/2019 10:43

Oh, and Westminster appears to be under the mistaken belief it can stop a second Indy ref. They can't, and they know it

Wasn't there a caveat that said if there was material change after the September 2014 referendum in Scotland another referendum could be held?

If it were a definite yes, the EU have already stated they wouldn't block an independent Scotland joining the EU

But what will Scotland put on the table that is beneficial to the EU? Can't see EU accepting any new members unless they give something in return.

Sometimes wonder if the EU assurance to Scotland they will be accepted without question is an attempt by the EU to create division in the UK and hopefully thwart Brexit?

InTheHeatofLisbon · 15/07/2019 10:46

Bercows Smile

bellini I was devastated when the first Indy ref result came in. My DD was up through the night unwell, and I watched it overnight actually crying (I was very hormonal having had 2 babies inside 12 months).

It felt like we'd lost a huge opportunity, but I accepted the result and moved on.

Then Brexit happened and it all went to shit. The open contempt from Westminster, from politicians and from the MSM towards Scotland (along with several on here and their archaic ignorant attitudes) have galvanised independence campaigners in a way nothing else could have.

If the UK truly were a union, each part would have a say in what comes next. They can give parliaments and assemblies, but the truth is, Westminster decides. It was always the way, and it's been made completely clear that that's the way it will always be.

The Welsh vote to leave is utterly mind boggling. I can't understand it.

InTheHeatofLisbon · 15/07/2019 10:51

Wasn't there a caveat that said if there was material change after the September 2014 referendum in Scotland another referendum could be held?

Yes. Conveniently ignored by the Tories.

But what will Scotland put on the table that is beneficial to the EU? Can't see EU accepting any new members unless they give something in return

Fishing waters, oilfields, renewable energy, a booming tourist trade, FOM, the export tax which currently makes up 50% of the UKs total export tax income and that's just off the top of my head.

What does Scotland stand to gain by remaining part of the UK?

It's easy to paint Scotland as a wee country with nothing to offer, but if we're such a drain and bring nothing to the table, why all the lies (remember "The Vow" anyone? No? We do) in desperation to keep us.

Do people honestly believe that Scotland is less of a power than Greece, Romania and Poland? Because they're all EU member states.

Scandinavian countries have a similar economy and manages to trade and do well.

So instead of asking what Scotland has to offer, why not ask what does the UK have to offer Scotland?

1tisILeClerc · 15/07/2019 10:52

{I used to be anti-Scotland's independence.}
Scotland seems to recognise being part of a larger bloc is important. Being part of the EU is obviously a bigger bloc than staying tied to England.
England urging Scotland to not go independent a few years back but then wanting to take Scotland out of the EU is obviously the problem. England has buggered up.

InTheHeatofLisbon · 15/07/2019 10:54

Scotland seems to recognise being part of a larger bloc is important. Being part of the EU is obviously a bigger bloc than staying tied to England.

Yes yes yes yes yes!

England urging Scotland to not go independent a few years back but then wanting to take Scotland out of the EU is obviously the problem. England has buggered up.

Big yes. Although rather than England I'd say Westminster or the government in England.

tomtom1999xx · 15/07/2019 10:56

I’ll never understand why Scotland wants independence from England but not from the EU?
Surely independence means just that, you’re on your own.
Maybe someone from Scotland can explain.

1tisILeClerc · 15/07/2019 10:59

{But what will Scotland put on the table that is beneficial to the EU? Can't see EU accepting any new members unless they give something in return.
Sometimes wonder if the EU assurance to Scotland they will be accepted without question is an attempt by the EU to create division in the UK and hopefully thwart Brexit?}

Failing to understand the point of being an EU member is the biggest problem. 'Little Englanders' don't seem to understand the concept of wider community. Being proud in a sense of belonging in your local community is great, it happens everywhere, but for some reason the 'little England' mentality seeks to take things away from others rather than boosting.

InTheHeatofLisbon · 15/07/2019 11:04

I’ll never understand why Scotland wants independence from England but not from the EU?

Because the EU would treat us as a member state of a union.

Surely independence means just that, you’re on your own.

Er no, nobody ever said independence from every nation in the world, it's unambiguously clear that independence means independence from Westminster.

Maybe someone from Scotland can explain.

We recognise that being part of a bloc is sensible, being a small country. We also recognise that being maligned, openly mocked and sneered at, ignored until we're useful in some way (see fishing waters and oilfields as bargaining chips for Westminster) and lied to is enough.

The Vow promised more powers for the SG. 5 years ago. None have materialised and in fact, Westminster has plans in place to remove some current powers post Brexit apparently temporarily.

So you may not understand, but I can't understand how anyone thinks we'd want to stay? Unless they're a hardened unionist and can't see beyond union flags and considering themselves British.

Oh and if you think anti Scottish rhetoric isn't the norm, ask yourself if Noel Gallagher had compared any other nation of people to Nazis and referred to them as a third world country, would he have had a backlash from the media, politicians and the general public?

Why hasn't he then?

bellinisurge · 15/07/2019 11:06

"The Welsh vote to leave is utterly mind boggling. I can't understand it."
Totally agree. That was the one that absolutely astonished me.

InTheHeatofLisbon · 15/07/2019 11:09

That was the one that absolutely astonished me

The agricultural subsidies the EU gives will be desperately missed in Wales, that was the biggest reason I was shocked. Westminster literally decimated Wales in the 80s and 90s so it completely blew my mind that they'd vote to give the same party that destroyed their country sole control over that country!

Neolara · 15/07/2019 11:10

Presumably the UK could Brexit without the NI border being an issue if we stayed in the single market and had a special agreement to also have a customs union. This was the Norway Plus option that lots of people championed but was rejected by Theresa May. Explained here.

tomtom1999xx · 15/07/2019 11:10

InTheHeatofLisbon

Thanks for replying.
FWIW, the average ‘little Englander’ ( as pp put it ) was happy for Scotland to gain their independence ( or didn’t care either way )

Hopefully next time. Smile

InTheHeatofLisbon · 15/07/2019 11:14

FWIW, the average ‘little Englander’ ( as pp put it ) was happy for Scotland to gain their independence ( or didn’t care either way )
Hopefully next time.

I'm personally very wary of using the phrase "little Englander" although I fully understand the kind of person it describes, because I don't want to mix up hatred for Westminster with hatred for English people. I hate Westminster, with a passion, but I have nothing at all against England or English people.

That said, I do agree that those type of people have a strong opinion, and many bleated about wanting a vote to get rid of Scotland. To them I say, please do!

It's a horrible mess, all of it. I wish the divisions weren't there, I wish the brexit vote had never happened, and most of all I wish that all the nastiness and bitterness would stop.

But I can't have that so I'll take the only option left if that makes sense.

TooTrueToBeGood · 15/07/2019 11:17

Presumably if Scotland does go independent we will also have to have a hard border with England. Whilst we do a lot of trade with the EU we also do a hell of a lot with England. Most of our EU exports go by road or rail through England so they will be impacted by a hard border too. We are damned if we do and damned if we don't. If I am forced to choose though I will vote leave in any future IndyRef having been a staunch remainer the last time round. I am sick to the back teeth of rotten-to-the-core Westminster politics and the significant xenophobic sentiment south of the border is nothing I want any association with. I genuinely feel sorry for the many decent, non-xenophobic English but there's always room up here for any that want it.

InTheHeatofLisbon · 15/07/2019 11:21

TooTrueToBeGood completely agree.

bellinisurge · 15/07/2019 11:21

@TooTrueToBeGood the border with Scotland is also likely to be an issue if it comes to that point BUT the key thing to remember is that GFA will not be a factor. It would be more like Norway/Sweden (or similar) . There could be a light touch hard border. It's just that there is no light touch technology that is GFA compliant right now. Until there is, there was the backstop.

InTheHeatofLisbon · 15/07/2019 11:28

A hard border between England and Scotland wouldn't present any of the long standing, distressing and traumatic problems a NI border would present.

It wouldn't be ideal but if needs must so be it.

But it's completely different from Scotland in NI and requires a different approach.

TheEmpireNoMore · 15/07/2019 11:31

Two entire countries within the UK voted clearly to remain, yet have been told to sit down and shut up. Our votes don't matter

That is disadvantage of forming a Union with a Country or Countries whose population is much larger than your own. England makes up about 85% of the entire UK population. So always a good chance the English opinion/mindset will prevail.

The EU has 28 member and a population of around 500 million. Of that over 40% of the total is; Germany, France and UK, 3 Countries out of 28.

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