The NI border issue can never be resolved can it?

[Bearbehind]

We would have left by now if is wasn’t for the border issue in NI and I genuinely can’t see a positive outcome.

If, 20 years after the GFA, peace is still so fragile a border is incompressible and any other option basically breaks up the union - how can it ever end well?

I am quite astonished at your recent posts HateIs, when you tell us that you have been alive for nearly six decades. How can you not know about 'The Troubles' and not recognise what a huge achievement the GFA was? To be in danger of throwing the peace it engendered away because of a Referendum designed to shut up a bunch of moneyed, selfish right wing Tories in Parliament, to my mind is bordering on criminal.

I ask, How can you not know, but then our present N I Secretary of State didn't have a clue either, and had no idea that people voted on sectarian lines.

As an aside I grew up in Wales, and we had lots of Welsh history taught to us. We moved back to England for my Secondary schooling - Welsh history, our noble Princes? 'Wales was conquered.' - One line in the history book! Yup, that gives a clue as to English attitudes.

@HateIsNotGood Perhaps you should take some time out to educate yourself and find out more about the troubles in NI. Your posts are ignorant in the extreme.

"Impression I get is that those from ROI want a united Ireland a bit more than NI? However, I have not lived or worked in either NI or ROI."
Here's my "impression " as someone with an Irish Mum and Irish family.
Peace and prosperity is what people want.
GFA gives it. It was so important to ROI that ROI had a referendum to change its constitution to cancel its territorial claim on NI. To make GFA work.
Ireland knows how to do referenda properly btw. Agree or disagree with the outcome it is a properly conducted democratic and legal process. Not impressionistic bollocks that fucks everything up.

@bellinisurge I didn't realise that. Fake obstacle indeed!

Do you have any idea why people in NI don't want a united Ireland? Do you know anything at all about NI.
And do you know how amazing it is that both communities voted Remain to be the majority outcome in the referendum there? Because they obviously did.

bellinisurge I'm googling more info but I'm not sure why the people of NI don't want a united Ireland so am more than happy to be told. In fact I'm off to the library later so might see if there's any books on the subject. I love learning about history. It's a shame we didn't cover this at school although I think I'd have been too distressed to learn it then with two brothers stationed there.

Can't comment on Wales, but Scotland and Ireland seem to think they live in the shadow of England?

Seem to think?

Scotland voted to remain, the Indy ref was lost because of the tagline "its the only guaranteed way to remain in the EU", Scottish MPs are openly derided and mocked in Westminster, and have even been told to "go home" on more than one occasion by other MPs, and the Tory government response to a swell in support for Indy 2 is to conduct an investigation into whether the Scottish Government is working for Westminster.

We're consistently told that the UK is a country (it's not, it's a union of 4), yet only one of the 4 countries involved gets to make decisions, represent the UK on a global platform and have any influence on things.

Britain and England are used interchangeably to mean the same thing, god knows the NI border issue has shown the pig ignorance of many (who now wail that nobody told them which is bullshit), and frankly the only people actually wanting out of the EU are the English and the Welsh.

So you see, there is no "seem" about it. Patronising little comments about oilfields (which ARE Scottish btw) and fishing waters (nice little bargaining chip often thrown out there by Westminster) only serve to make it more clear that independence is needed.

You can take your nuclear weapons when we go too. The ones conveniently placed to avoid London in the event of a nuclear disaster.

A lot of England voted to leave, yes. But not all of us. Off the top of my head Manchester, Leeds, Bristol and London voted to remain. I hate being lumped into "the English" like that.

Older persons seem to be more in favour remaining a member of the UK.

Evidence suggests that said older persons voted No in the Indy ref because they believed it would keep us in the EU.

Polls suggest the voters (mostly older) who did so would vote differently in the second referendum (which there is a caveat for in the event of "clear and significant changes" ie Brexit) because being part of the EU is most important to them.

Oh, and Westminster appears to be under the mistaken belief it can stop a second Indy ref. They can't, and they know it.

We could hold one tomorrow and there would be nothing they could do. If it were a definite yes, the EU have already stated they wouldn't block an independent Scotland joining the EU.

Since the majority of Scottish politicians (Tories and Mundell in particular aside) haven't insulted, been xenophobic about or indeed slated the EU, I'd say we're in a pretty strong position.

I hate being lumped into "the English" like that.

The irony of that statement.

We've been lumped in for years! Two entire countries within the UK voted clearly to remain, yet have been told to sit down and shut up. Our votes don't matter.

They matter to me.

What would your solution be?

@Bercows , really? Don't you know what the Unionist community is?

They matter to me.

Thank you. Fwiw I agree that "the English" isn't one hive mind and that many voted to remain.

Honestly? Until recently I'd have said I'd have given up any thought of independence in order to stop brexit and have the whole UK pulled back from the edge.

Now? With Hunt and Johnson being the future, I just want out. I want an independent Scotland to join the EU and go forward from there.

I'm busy telling all my English friends and family to move up here.

Because I genuinely don't see a solution any more, which can benefit the whole UK. This has brought previously slightly covered up contempt for Scotland and NI out of people and politicians in particular to the fore and they're not even trying to hide it any more. Scotland and NI are and always have been an afterthought, as evidenced by the apparent surprise of many that NI won't just sit down and do as it's told.

I want the divides healed, but how can they be? When the Brexit Party has a hell of a foothold all over England (but nowhere else) and two of the most divisive, out of touch, elite politicians in history decide the future?

Boris proposes a tax rise which will affect Scottish, Welsh and NIrish taxpayers, but only benefits English high rate taxpayers. When challenged on it he shrugged and laughed.

Sadly, and I do genuinely mean that, it's time for us all to go our own way to avoid being dragged down with a rapidly sinking ship.

For those with no option, I don't know, it's awful and unfair.

I'm obviously missing something so eager to learn.

@Bercows , please tell me you didn't vote Leave?

Bercows unionists are traditionally Protestant and consider themselves to be British, hence unionists. They have enjoyed a society where the best jobs, wages, housing and opportunities are afforded to them because they are Protestant.

Nationalists (who want Ireland to be one nation) are traditionally Roman Catholic and consider themselves to be Irish. They have either lived through, or heard from family about the very recent past where they were not given the same civil rights as the Protestant Unionists (again housing, jobs, wages and opportunities) based purely on the fact that they are RC.

To be honest that's a very, very potted history which doesn't explain anything like all of it, but it's a start.

The divisions in NI were put there by the British government, the civil rights removal was solely the work of the British government, and the horrific abuses of nationalist communities (NOT terrorists, ordinary, regular RC people) by sections of the British army (the paras in particular) has caused untold suffering for many, many decades.

Unionists fear a united Ireland as they'd be a minority, and they've enjoyed dominance in daily life for generations.

I'm sorry to sound so brutal about your lack of knowledge on NI - there's plenty I don't know about on all sorts of things. But this is fecking crucial. It's the sole reason we haven't left yet. And to not understand it, at this stage, is pretty shocking to me.

bellinisurge no I didn't. I've name changed a bit but have been on the stockpiling threads and Westminsterenders threads for ages. It's thanks to you that I have my brexit stash as does my mum Formerly BercowsSilkTie and SparklySneakers but de-regged for a while as I got too stressed with it all. My ds is the one who goes round calling out "clear the lobby" and "the ayes/noes have it!" At the top of his voice Remainer through and through and the GFA is of the highest importance to me in all this.

It's the sole reason we haven't left yet. And to not understand it, at this stage, is pretty shocking to me.

I have to say it is to me too.

The poster on page 1 who said they didn't remember it being mentioned before the referendum blew my mind. It was brought up countless times and dismissed as project fear, or ignored by prominent politicians (who presumably DID understand the finer nuances of why it would cause issues).

But Bercows seems to be genuinely asking so I gave a very potted history.

@Bercows @InTheHeatofLisbon has summarised it pretty well. All that they explained is behind the horrible violence of The Troubles. And GFA miraculously wonderfully ended it. And so we should, with ROI and the people of NI (And frankly, with help from the US and the EU) be bloody proud of ourselves that we pulled it off.
And Brexit fucks all that up because GFA is predicated on us both being members of the EU.
WA created a fudge to fix it. I was prepared to accept that.

I should add that it's a very general post, it doesn't apply to everyone in NI and there will obviously be exceptions.

But in terms of "sides" generally it kind of explains the basics.

Google internment, Ballymurphy, 1 Para, Rossville Flats and it'll give you a better idea.

{I'm busy telling all my English friends and family to move up here. }
While it is admirable that you and Prettybird have this sentiment, have you thought through the realities of significant immigration?
In particular, does it have the wholehearted support of a more than significant majority of Scots and even more important that the Scottish Parliament are fully behind this, in both the will to make the necessary accommodation and the funds to do it?
It is largely the Westminster government's failings to properly manage immigration, not by the absolute numbers, but ensuring the funding and appropriate building to ensure that the influx does not impact to the detriment to the existing community. While diversity is good, there needs to be a commonality in at least functional language rather than 'incomers' expecting to have everything provided in their native language.

Remainer through and through and the GFA is of the highest importance to me in all this

but I'm not sure why the people of NI don't want a united Ireland

I find it very hard to fathom how those two statements came from the same brain to be honest. There's no way on this earth that someone who professes that the GFA is of importance to them can not fathom why a United Ireland is a complete anathema to some people in NI.

I really couldn't give a toss what happen's in NI, my country is Scotland i care what happen's here.

I understand a lot, especially that this is why we've not left yet, but I misunderstood your point about the unionist community so thought I'd missed something.

However this:
Unionists fear a united Ireland as they'd be a minority, and they've enjoyed dominance in daily life for generations.
wasn't something I was aware of in terms of unionists becoming a minority. I'd never read of it or thought of it from that angle, so thank you for explaining.

Like I said, I knew nothing growing up of the history, only that as a family we were in danger from the IRA (although we are catholic and have Irish great grandparents). Nothing was taught at school. It's only since being on mumsnet and discovering the brexit threads that I've taken it upon myself to learn what I can. I apologise if my questions aren't quite right in some way. I'm always worried about causing offence which is why I thought I must have missed something and didn't want to appear thick. I have no time for ignorance, particularly my own, so I make it my business to find out. I am genuinely interested and deeply worried about Northern Ireland in this clusterfuck of political madness. I wish I'd been taught about politics from a much younger age so that it didn't take me until I was 40 to have an interest.