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Brexit

The NI border issue can never be resolved can it?

458 replies

Bearbehind · 14/07/2019 20:39

We would have left by now if is wasn’t for the border issue in NI and I genuinely can’t see a positive outcome.

If, 20 years after the GFA, peace is still so fragile a border is incompressible and any other option basically breaks up the union - how can it ever end well?

OP posts:
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Isthisafreename · 23/07/2019 22:00

@Peregrina - *Wasn't it Team GB for the Olympics

Yes. I thought that was pretty shit.

MindyStClaire · 23/07/2019 22:10

Yup I growl every time I hear Team GB.

I can understand people on here, say, getting a bit sloppy with their terminology. Language matters and it annoys me but I know it's not the end of the world, especially if the underlying sentiment is ok.

But this is the Prime Minister elect we're talking about here. He's supposedly going to be my Prime Minister tomorrow, but cut off my whole part of the country. Presume he'll do a speech outside Number 10 tomorrow, I hope he's more precise.

Isthisafreename · 23/07/2019 22:28

Interestingly, I turned on the radio today to hear some snippets of Teresa May's speech when she took over. She also referred to Great Britain, but UK.

HateIsNotGood · 23/07/2019 22:37

Does anyone know if clerc is ok? He's not been around for a day or so and he's been so regular with his posting - I almost miss the dear chap.

Rumboogie · 23/07/2019 22:50

This assertion (of the OP) makes me fume.

The Irish border is a non-issue.
In 2016, at the time of the referendum and May's Lancaster House speech, Enda Kenny convened a working group of British and Irish civil servants to discuss cross border issues - it was non-controversial.

Only in 2017 when May lost her majority and became reliant on the DUP and Varadker was elected, with a minority government, did Brussels seize the opportunity to ramp up the issue and declare it 'impossible' to avoid a hard border. Varadker then disbanded Kenny's working group and claimed that Brexit threatened the GFA.

This has been robustly refuted by the majority of those actually responsible for that treaty- witness Trimble, for instance, 'This is scaremongering. I do not see a connection between this process and peace in Northern Ireland.'; Lord Carswell, Lord Chief Jusstice of NI at the time of the agreement, 'EU negociators have been rigid and intransigent to the point of being obstructive......and the Government of the Republic has thrown itself in line with that.'

The head of British HMRC and his counterpart in Ireland have both said there is no need for any additional physical infrastructure on the border.

Two leading customs experts have told the Commons Select Committee on NI that we can rely on existing technology, trusted trader schemes and behind-border checks.

Thus it is clear that the Irish border has been deliberately weaponised by Brussels and Varadker, and unfortunately May was not canny enough to see this.

The reality is that the Irish border issue and Backstop is pushing the UK towards a No-Deal exit, and if this happens Ireland's economy will be trashed. Varadker has belatedly realised that this may actually happen and has had to concede he may have to soften his stance.

DioneTheDiabolist · 23/07/2019 23:30

OMG, Michael Gove!🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

That's fucking hilarious.🤣
I have found my Silver Lining.Grin

UKvsTheWorld · 24/07/2019 03:58

Does anyone know if clerc is ok? He's not been around for a day or so and he's been so regular with his posting - I almost miss the dear chap

Maybe resigned?

Isthisafreename · 24/07/2019 09:31

@Bearbehind
The initial assumption at the time of the referendum was that the UK would remain in the CU and SM as the pre-referendum rhetoric was strongly suggestive of this. The threat to the GFA and the border became apparent once Teresa May started to introduce her red lines.

Brussels has never declared it is impossible to avoid a hard border. They have insisted a hard border must not happen.

This has been robustly refuted by the majority of those actually responsible for that treaty - Bullshit. Trimble certainly has rowed in but his claims have been disputed by pretty much everyone. No other person involved in the GFA has suggested there is not a problem.

An article here states: Former Ulster Unionist Party leader David Trimble - now a member of the House of Lords - has also entered the fray with an open letter to Mrs May making the audacious claim that any fears of Northern Ireland being affected by a no-deal Brexit are "groundless".

This is despite the fact that the Confederation of British Industry has warned that such a scenario would have a "devastating" impact on the North, shrinking the economy by almost €6bn over 15 years. He goes on to assure Mrs May that in his view, Border "infrastructure is no longer needed since modern electronic procedures can do the job".

Like everyone else who has suggested an electronic solution for the frontier, he has no suggestions on how this mysterious technology would actually work.

His comments provoked a sharp rebuke from his fellow peer Baroness Nuala O'Loan who said he was talking "rubbish". The former police ombudsman for the North accused Mr Trimble of acting irresponsibly. That's putting it in rather parliamentary language.

The spectacle of a man who won a Nobel Prize for his commitment to the 1998 Good Friday Agreement being so blasé is incredible to witness. The genuine concerns of people as diverse as industry leaders, farmers and ordinary citizens who live along the Border are real and should be taken seriously rather than dismissed glibly.

The head of British HMRC and his counterpart in Ireland have both said there is no need for any additional physical infrastructure on the border.

Can you please provide aa link to this as the only links I can find suggest this is unicorn territory. Jim Harra, the deputy chief executive, said max fac would mean the need for customs controls but that those controls could be operated without physical infrastructure at the border.

He admitted that presents "a design challenge. If you look around the world, even the most technologically advanced customs borders generally involve some kind of infrastructure."

Two leading customs experts have told the Commons Select Committee on NI that we can rely on existing technology, trusted trader schemes and behind-border checks.

Again, please post a link. Nobody has yet provided any detail on these so called technological solutions. Any one who knows anything about technology is sceptical, at best.

Thus it is clear that the Irish border has been deliberately weaponised by Brussels and Varadker, and unfortunately May was not canny enough to see this.

This is simply paranoia.

The reality is that the Irish border issue and Backstop is pushing the UK towards a No-Deal exit, and if this happens Ireland's economy will be trashed. Varadker has belatedly realised that this may actually happen and has had to concede he may have to soften his stance.

Again, please provide a link. Varadkar has remained consistent in his and Ireland's position.

probstimeforanewname · 24/07/2019 10:48

Yup I growl every time I hear Team GB

It's not like they haven't been told. How difficult would it actually be to say Team UK?

And, how difficult would it be for England to stop using the UK national anthem for some team sports...

bellinisurge · 24/07/2019 19:54

I'll leave this here. The good people at Hairy Baby have just messaged me to tell me it's on sale now.

The NI border issue can never be resolved can it?
HarveySchlumpfenburger · 24/07/2019 20:38

How difficult would it actually be to say Team UK?

But it isn’t Team UK. The team themselves don’t call themselves that and it’s just as incorrect as Team GB.

Isthisafreename · 24/07/2019 21:03

@RafaIsTheKingOfClay - But it isn’t Team UK.

How come? Are they not representing the UK for things like the olympics?

Clavinova · 24/07/2019 21:05

Statement by head of Irish Revenue 24 Jan 2019;

Opening Statement of Mr. Niall Cody, Revenue Chairman, to the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach

Brexit No Deal Scenario

"In a no deal scenario, the free circulation and movement of goods between EU Member States and the UK will end.This will pose significant challenges for Ireland and other Member States, as well as for the UK. Irish businesses engaged in trade with the UK will be obliged to comply with customs procedures and controls."

"The Union Customs Code (UCC) provides streamlined and simplified procedures and Revenue has invested in scaling up our Customs IT systems to handle the increased transaction levels; we are engaged with businesses to help them to prepare for trade with the UK as a third country, and we have prioritised the deployment of staff to facilitate trade."

"The Government has made clear that its overriding objective is to avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland.Revenue is not planning for customs posts."

"The Government has indicated that in the event of no deal, it will engage in intensive discussions with the EU Commission and our EU partners and Revenue will provide whatever technical expertise and assistance may be required during this process."

www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/press-office/speeches/2019/finance-public-expenditure-reform-taoiseach-chairman-opening-statement-2019.aspx

jasjas1973 · 24/07/2019 21:11

I have some sympathy for your POV Clavinova but the point is, no border anywhere in the world (that isn't in a comprehensive SM/CU) has a frictionless border with no infrastructure.

If a tech solution is readily available, it would be in operation or about to put in place, Norway/Sweden or the Swiss/EU borders would have these surely?

Max Fac is fine for legit business but criminality, both organised and random also has to be dealt with.

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 24/07/2019 21:22

Yes the four UK countries are part of that team, but so are other parts of Britain that aren’t in the UK. I don’t think you can make an argument that Team GB isn’t ok but Team UK is without it looking a bit hypocritical.

I think ‘the British Team’ might be the closest you can get to something that encompasses everything & isn’t a complete mouthful for commentators.

Isthisafreename · 24/07/2019 21:26

@Clavinova - the wording of that is all very carefully crafted. "Revenue is not planning for customs posts" is not the same as "customs posts will not be required". The Irish position has been that any hard border is caused by the British and no discussion or plans for one will take place south of the border as we are insisting the UK honour the GFA.

There is an element of seeing who blinks first here. More recently, it has been stated that checks will need to take place and I think it was Coveney who stated we will not jeopardise our SM and CU membership.

A lot can, and is currently, being done with technology. However, not everything can be done that way. Livestock checks, for example, cannot be done without physical checks.

Isthisafreename · 24/07/2019 21:32

@RafaIsTheKingOfClay - I'm not British and I'm somewhat geographically challenged so am not sure what you mean. Is it the isle of man or gibraltar or similar that you're talking about?

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 24/07/2019 22:00

Channel Islands, Isle of Mann, Gibraltar and most of the other British overseas territories as well as England, NI, Scotland and Wales all make up the ‘Team GB’ Olympic Team.

The Venn Diagram on this link might clarify things or might just make you more confused Wink

In any case, Team GB is the official registered name of the British Olympic team. It’s not just the BBC being lazy. It is controversial, but there isn’t really an easy solution to the problem.

Clavinova · 24/07/2019 22:00

From my first link;

"Revenue’s overarching approach is to carry out the required customs controls through a risk based programme of post clearance checks and customs audits which, to the greatest extent possible, will take place at traders’ premises, away from the point of importation."

"Customs expert Lars Karlsson clarifies his Smart Border 2.0 proposal" - a mixture of technology and 'trusted trader' approach.

www.governmenteuropa.eu/smart-border-2-0-solving-border/91512/

Too hot - might look tomorrow.

Isthisafreename · 25/07/2019 00:48

@Clavinova - have you read that document? What is proposed in that document is not currently implementable. It is a potential roadmap to a possible solution. Additionally, there are intricicies on cross-border movement due to the all-island nature of a lot of trade, particularly in the agriculture sector, that make it more complex than most borders.

That is where the backstop comes in. The backstop remains until a solution of this nature is implemented. Then the frictionless border allows the backstop to be dropped.

Mistigri · 25/07/2019 06:47

If the technology solution was so easy, there would be no objection to the backstop.

If you object to the backstop, you are de facto admitting that there is no technology solution.

Cutantrim · 25/07/2019 08:47

How come there’s no problem with say, the border between the US and Canada?

Guiness2019 · 25/07/2019 08:51

The backstop remains until a solution of this nature is implemented

That's why the WA was rejected. Nothing to prevent the EU from rejecting all technological solutions and there was no mechanism for the UK to withdraw from the WA.

If you object to the backstop, you are de facto admitting that there is no technology solution

Not necessarily so as wording of WA does not compel EU to accept any solution presented. They can simply reject all suggestions without reason and UK is locked into EU forever, but without any say.

Very poorly drafted deal. Not surprised T May wanted Cox's legal interpretation to kept secret.

If EU does not move on existing WA then UK be default leave the EU without a deal and must trade on WTO.

In anticipation of the question;

where does that leave ROI and NI?

My best guess is that EU will either have to make some concessions on goods that cross the invisible border or provide some form of bailout package like the they did for Greece to ensure both ROI and NI economies are not damaged.

AgileLass · 25/07/2019 08:56

How come there’s no problem with say, the border between the US and Canada?

Gee, let me think, what could possibly be the difference between the US/Canadian border and the border in Ireland? Hmm

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