The NI border issue can never be resolved can it?

[Bearbehind]

We would have left by now if is wasn’t for the border issue in NI and I genuinely can’t see a positive outcome.

If, 20 years after the GFA, peace is still so fragile a border is incompressible and any other option basically breaks up the union - how can it ever end well?

@bellinisurge - I think they left it out because it is a can of worms.

I think they left it out because they didn't give a shit and they assumed the Irish would roll over and facilitate them.

We seem to be the only country that is unable to leave of our own free will purely from a terrorism point of view

Nothing to do with terrorism and everything to do with a legally binding treaty.

Seriously this is very easy to resolve. Either we don't leave the EU (preferred option). Or we remain in the EEA (also a preferred option).

Or we acknowledge the simple truth that NI, as a territory whose residents are nearly all EU nationals, or entitled to be, will be a special case if the UK leaves the EU and therefore must have a special status where it remains within the Single Market and CU. It is not hard and it is only the DUP/ERGers who are making it so for dogmatic reasons.

"I think they left it out because they didn't give a shit and they assumed the Irish would roll over and facilitate them."

That too, Isthisafreename . They forgot about the 26 mates that Ireland has. Not so easy to push someone around if they have mates.

{NI, as a territory whose residents are nearly all EU nationals, or entitled to be, will be a special case if the UK leaves the EU}

So the citizens of Wales, Scotland, Gibraltar and England are getting a worse deal and citizens rights than NI.

I’m not sure all the blame can be apportioned to the DUP here. Even if they developed an uncharacteristic ability to compromise there are plenty of others who wouldn’t be happy with a border in the Irish Sea and special economic considerations for NI.

I’m not sure it’s guaranteed that you could get that through parliament even with dup support.

As the 'border in the Irish sea' features in the EU's 'emergency no deal preparations' The EU will be less unhappy about it than most.

@1tisILeClerc - So the citizens of Wales, Scotland, Gibraltar and England are getting a worse deal and citizens rights than NI.

That's really up to the UK government. Citizens of NI have rights based on the GFA. It is up to the UK government to decide whether they wish to give the same to the roUK by remaining in the EU or going with the WA and continuing with alignment of rights.

@RafaIsTheKingOfClay - I’m not sure all the blame can be apportioned to the DUP here.

I agree. There's plenty of blame to go around.

My "Border in the sea" suggestion has to be coupled with "NI is a special economic zone ". Which is what I keep saying.
Border in the sea on its own suggest (re)unification of Ireland and N Ireland.

As I have said before, if NI is made a special economic zone, the DUP get to still be a big fish in a little pond. If there is greater prosperity in NI as a consequence of being in a special economic zone, (re)unification is less likely. Because, right now, with the inevitable demographic swing, even without the shit show of Brexit, (re)unification is more possible.

Inward investments into an area where factories get burned down and workers are intimidated is a problem.

It’s still not problem free. You might get the DUP on board but you’ll probably lose another chunk of support somewhere else.

Of course it's not problem free. If the DUP is on board (spoiler alert :it wouldn't be) and the nationalist community is on board and the EU is on board and people who just want tbe whole thing over with and don't give a shit about NI are on board, who have I forgotten?

Don't remember GFA receiving much attention, if any, in the press, TV debates, etc.

It was mentioned. I'm sure of that because it was the primary factor by a mile that determined my personal vote to remain. However, not nearly enough attention was given to it and the blame for that lies squarely with the politicians and the media. It's unforgivable. Many of the potential pros and cons of leaving are subjective. The ramifications for NI and the fragile peace process are not.

The dismissive attitude of many to the NI population is sickening. I have no Irish or NI connections, no skin in the game. However, they are human beings and as much entitled to a chance at peace and prosperity as everyone else. They are also, regardless of whether some are reluctantly so, UK citizens and as entitled as everyone else to a duty of care from the UK government and support from their fellow citizens to ensure they receive that.

The GFA is right up there in the list of almost unbelievably memorable events I've seen in my lifetime. It ranks alongside the end of Apartheid in South Africa and the fall of the Berlin wall. There is a special place in hell for anyone that would sabotage it.

@1tisILeClerc - Inward investments into an area where factories get burned down and workers are intimidated is a problem.

This is most definitely not the norm these days.

@TooTrueToBeGood - They are also, regardless of whether some are reluctantly so, UK citizens and as entitled as everyone else to a duty of care from the UK government and support from their fellow citizens to ensure they receive that.

The GFA allows for NI citizens to be exclusively Irish, although the UK government has yet to legislate for that. They are currently breaking the GFA by forcing British citizenship on NI citizens who identify as Irish only.

So the citizens of Wales, Scotland, Gibraltar and England are getting a worse deal and citizens rights than NI

Thought the special economic zone was for the purpose of goods crossing borders as opposed to citizens rights?

Isthisafreename
I am of course very glad to hear that and it is of course why the GFA and the gradual healing of the previous rifts must be allowed to continue and if possible be accelerated. Of course if the bigger industries were to be able to return, it would be a massive boost, but that is unlikely as the scale of the work is even dissipating from Europe as a whole, not just NI, or the UK.
Everyone needs to learn about the root of the problems and find a way to tackle them, not just view the tip and draw incorrect conclusions.

TheEmpireNoMore
As usual it is a complicated mixture. Residents of NI are entitled to both UK and EU passports, but people elsewhere can only have UK passports and are being disadvantaged by the UK leaving.

Welsh Scottish Gibraltarian and English people negatively affected by Brexit have to make their own arguments. I'm one of those too.
NI is different because of GFA. Make it a special economic zone for trading purpose and you create opportunities for fudge to fix citizenship issues. And it would be a fudge. But fudge is better than cold turkey.

They are currently breaking the GFA by forcing British citizenship on NI citizens who identify as Irish only

UK accepts dual citizenship. Helpful if someone would have to forfeit their preferred citizenship as a result of becoming UK citizen as not all Countries will accept dual citizenship.

So the citizens of Wales, Scotland, Gibraltar and England are getting a worse deal and citizens rights than NI

Yes. But that is the case across the UK - anyone who can wheel out a granny with an EU passport will keep the benefits of EU membership (in most cases, some depend on residency). Hence why I hope that in the end common sense prevails and we remain in the EU or the EEA.

NI residents can be British, Irish or both as they choose. How can NI NOT be a special case? Interesting that a few DUPers have applied for the hated Irish passports, too. Cake and eating it and all that.

@TheEmpireNoMore - UK accepts dual citizenship. Helpful if someone would have to forfeit their preferred citizenship as a result of becoming UK citizen as not all Countries will accept dual citizenship.

Dual citizenship is only relevant if a NI citizen sees themselves as both British and Irish. The UK refuses to recognise NI citizens who see themselves as Irish only as they assume British citizenship as a default.

@probstimeforanewname - Yes. But that is the case across the UK - anyone who can wheel out a granny with an EU passport will keep the benefits of EU membership

It's not really the same thing. The GFA requires the same rights for NI and RoI so it's more than just allowing FoM etc. An EU citizen residing in GB post-brexit will not be entitled to the same rights wrt employment etc as an EU citizen residing in an EU country. Obviously they will be entitled to FoM etc.

On a bridge in Derry. Note the date.

lljkk the date and the fact it's ITV news rather bursts the bubble of those wailing "but nobody told us" doesn't it?

All the information was there before the vote, predictions of economic disaster and all. People just chose to ignore it and preferred a PR buffoon with a big red bus.

I say PR buffoon because I don't believe for a second that the blustering idiot routine is anything other than PR. He's inches from where he always wanted to be and didn't get there by accident.

It's just a shame people didn't listen to the warnings.