There really is no point trying to persuade Leavers....

[Closertotheheart]

As the title suggests really. There is no point trying to reason a debate with them as they are totally tunnel-visioned. Loads of them seem to think we should leave without a deal and go on to WTO rules.

They blame the Remainers in parliament for us having not left yet.

They blame Remainers in general for, well, seemingly anything and everything.

They blame the EU for us not having left yet.

They spout myth as if it was fact.

I despair. There really is no point trying to reason with them.

I'm at the point where I feel there is nothing left to say on the topic so let them have their 'victory' so at least they will have no one to blame.

I’d like to hear the rationale behind that too kenn

Likewise, it would also be good to know how we can do more about environmental issues outside the EU than in?

Explanation is fairly simple.

Leavers think UK will be better off after Brexit

Remainers think UK will be worse off after Brexit

Only time will tell which way it goes.

Not quite that @LifeContinues . BeLeavers , at most, acknowledge a slightly negative impact with No Deal but pretty amazing economic glory pretty soon.
And anyone who doesn't believe that is a "Remainer" and therefore doesn't have an opinion worth considering because they don't believe in democracy.
I voted Remain. With a Hunt-esque heavy heart I accepted WA. But that wasn't Brexit-y enough for ERG who are responsible for us still being in the EU because they didn't support WA in our sovereign parliament.

{Explanation is fairly simple.
Leavers think UK will be better off after Brexit}

But have no idea how it might actually happen. So far (3 years) NO ONE has managed to put up a credible, properly costed plan of leaving that might be 'better' than remaining.

I think increasingly the argument has moved on from "better off". Worse off but with a relief fund, according to Jeremy Hunt, and at least pensioners and racists won't be grumbling that their vote has been ignored.

Enjoy (or maybe get the hell out).

There was no costed plan before the referendum was called as Cameron thought the odds of a Leave result were small.

Does not seem to have been a costed plan before MP's (500+ apparently) voted to trigger Article 50 on 29 March 2017.

Also does not to have been a costed plan before the 2017 GE held a weeks later in June when both the major parties agreed to honor the leave result.

So even now 3 years later it is still perception as to whether good or bad and only time will tell.

Here is Jeremy Hunt's "relief plan" briefly outlined here. Sorry I cant do links properly, not sure how.

Leavers on this thread, could you tell me if you are happy with the outcome in this article? Did you vote leave under the premise of making new trade deals with the rest of the world, and these being the easiest trade deals in history? If so, are you the least bit perturbed by Jeremy's comments?

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/30/jeremy-hunt-i-would-tell-bust-businesses-no-deal-brexit-was-worth-it?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Facebook

The various committees have produced costings but they were quickly dismissed as 'Project Fear' so many MPs have an idea of what will happen, which is probably why there is no great consensus to 'just leave'. They also have an idea of the sheer quantity of work that the UK will have to do alone to even stand still, let alone improve on the 'deals' that the UK gets as part of the EU.
The concept of a little more sovereignty, will be a hard sell against a couple of million jobs lost, an increase in trading tariffs and so on.

Explanation is fairly simple.
Leavers think UK will be better off after Brexit

What will they do if it isn't better?

Did you vote leave under the premise of making new trade deals with the rest of the world

Can't speak for 17.4 million people, but I think many voted leave as fed up with the EU and immigration. Nothing on the ballot paper about deals.

406 constituencies voted leave and 242 to remain if info on internet is correct. Something must have convinced the 406 that UK would be better off?

What will they do if it isn't better?

Choose at a GE to vote for the party that wants to rejoin the EU I guess?

A bit like voting Labour in 1997 after 18 years of Conservatives in power and back to Conservatives in 2010 after 13 years of Labour in power.

{EU and immigration.}
These will be mostly the ones that don't understand what being in the EU means, and ignore the fact that the UK always has been able to address immigration, but didn't.

"So even now 3 years later it is still perception as to whether good or bad and only time will tell."

No Deal is a the worst version of it and even Johnson and Hunt claim (depending on who they talk to) that they don't want it. @LifeContinues , that isn't Brexit. That is economic suicide. WA was Brexit. My preferred (least worst) version of "Border in the Sea/NI as a special economic area" would be Brexit.

I think many voted leave as fed up with the EU and immigration

Which exactly proves my earlier comment - there is no point discussing this with Leavers because the only thing they are actually bothered about is immigration and to hell with everything else

Do you @LifeContinues seriously believe that rejoining on inevitably worse terms is viable?
This isn't like giving up chocolate for Lent. This is serious grown up shit. Guessing you don't care.

I met a pub landlord last week, he said most of his customers voted Leave (as did he). He said he asked them and every single one of them said it was because of immigration, nobody, not one person, gave any other reason. This was Dartmoor.

To: LeClerc / Bells / Bear

Understand or not people can choose how they vote.

From what I remember the tabloids stirred up a lot about immigration prior to the referendum. How much it influenced people can't be measured, but some will have been swayed.

In and out of the EU would not be very practical, but if voters are given the choice and choose that route how does the government ignore?

It’s so depressing that Leavers arguments continue to be so basic.

It’s not surprising therefore that they don’t understand the damage Brexit is doing / will do and also don’t understand it isn’t going to change immigration anymore than we could have done anyway.

There was no costed plan before the referendum was called as Cameron thought the odds of a Leave result were small

And this gamble has led us to where we are now. I also think that there was a lot of arrogance in this with even Remainers like Cameron blinded by exceptionalism thinking worst case scenario the EU would beg us to stay and give us anything we wanted. A full independent researched plan on the economic and social impact of leaving the EU and how this might work for NI while maintaining the GFA absolutely should have been undertaken before putting such a vague referendum to the people.

{From what I remember the tabloids stirred up a lot about immigration prior to the referendum. }

So this is the tabloids (and others) telling lies, and 'leave voters' unable to think for themselves.
I suppose since BoJo and Hunt are still telling lies there is not much hope left.

To KenDodd

My parents and most of their siblings decided to support Leave before the Remain campaign leaflet arrived in the post. Reasons given were mostly:

EU government is not elected (ie Barnier/Juncker)
Immigration

Common factor between them all is:

All live in the North East of UK
All are over 60

So this is the tabloids (and others) telling lies, and 'leave voters' unable to think for themselves

TV and Press are very powerful persuaders. Those who voted remain say leave voters were lied to as there would never be 350 million per week to spend on NHS and immigration does not harm the UK.

Likewise leave voters say remain voters were lied to as the certain disaster that was forecast to happen just by a leave vote even before actually leaving the EU never happened.

I suppose since BoJo and Hunt are still telling lies there is not much hope left

Since when have politicians not lied?

Those who voted remain say leave voters were lied to as there would never be 350 million per week to spend on NHS and immigration does not harm the UK.

But those 2 things have been categorically proven to be lies.

And the economy is diving even before we have left and even the governments own analysis proves Brexit will make us worse off in every scenario.

{Likewise leave voters say remain voters were lied to as the certain disaster that was forecast to happen just by a leave vote even before actually leaving the EU never happened.}

Leave voters are full of shit. If they understood anything they would have some idea that uncoupling over 40 years of integration between the UK and EU can't happen in a weekend and that to actually do it will take 5 years minimum.
It has taken 3 years already and the UK hasn't even fully decided if it is in or out FFS.
The UK economy didn't 'crash' immediately (apart from a few days of massive dip) because the BofE pumped piles of money in to shore up the main banks.

Since when have politicians not lied?

So, logically, no reason to believe in sunny uplands then either.

Experts predict disaster- why not believe THEM? People who ACTUALLY know their stuff?