There really is no point trying to persuade Leavers....

[Closertotheheart]

As the title suggests really. There is no point trying to reason a debate with them as they are totally tunnel-visioned. Loads of them seem to think we should leave without a deal and go on to WTO rules.

They blame the Remainers in parliament for us having not left yet.

They blame Remainers in general for, well, seemingly anything and everything.

They blame the EU for us not having left yet.

They spout myth as if it was fact.

I despair. There really is no point trying to reason with them.

I'm at the point where I feel there is nothing left to say on the topic so let them have their 'victory' so at least they will have no one to blame.

Saw a press interview with Varadkar. He said the only way to stop a hard border is regulatory alignment. He didn't want to comment on the Tory leadership election or on how the UK Parliament should get anything through but observed that both candidates had voted for the WA at some point. Which suggested they were willing to avoid No Deal.
He also said that Ireland is under a duty to protect the single market. Which is the closest I think he has come to saying that border checks were inevitable if the UK goes No Deal.

I don't think Leavers care about the state of Ireland which is depressing in itself. I hate what this referendum has done. Its brought out the worst in people. I wonder what lesson from this people will learn.

{ I wonder what lesson from this people will learn.}
Unless it descends to a point where people die as a visibly direct result of Brexit, it probably won't sink in at all. And even then many will say 'it would have happened anyway' or 'It was the EU wot dun it'.*

• incorrect spelling intended.

If/when the arrival of medical supplies is disrupted when the UK leaves, it won't be 'The UK government lied and fucked it up' it will be the (insert nasty names for the EU) that are persecuting us.

I fear you're right 1tis. Already had a poster on hear complaining about the EU giving us a bad deal in terms of the WA. They clearly cant comprehend it was an agreement to withdraw and the subtleties of the fact that TM and the EU put it together was completely lost on that pp.

I think Theresa was essentially 'honest' at the beginning but was completely out of her depth very early on so although she understood the EU position, she was part bullied by the ERG etc into not accepting things then unable to pull back from the fantasists. The WA is after all only a STARTING position for ongoing discussions, essentially the ground rules saying that if the UK does not want XXX to continue, then it will follow YYY route to stand down from it.
Boris particularly but Hunt as well are essentially lying their arses off. Hunt probably has a better grip on what needs to happen but eventually he will find the boundaries that will stop the pair of them.

I think TM was 'honest' in that she stood by her xenophobia when setting her red lines, and so we got the best WA that was available due to her intolerance lack of "Christian" empathy

Remember "Citizens of Nowhere".

The Quitlings tend to forget that it was the UK Government that insisted on the backstop initially! Having agreed to it, the EU, understandably, want us to abide by that agreement.

{I think TM was 'honest' in that she stood by her xenophobia}
Oh yes, plenty of other faults but I think she understands the mechanics of the process unlike Bozo and Co.

Just popped back for a look see, and thought I'd respond to Bears questions, briefly, without writing an 'essay':

Question: you’ve not even begun to explain how or why, the government will deal with any of the things you’ve listed when they have never bothered to do so before and they are going to be so wrapped up in the fall out from Brexit they can’t come up for air for decades.

Answer: By keeping our Governance 'close', with no EU 'scapegoat to blame, means 'they' are more accountable to their electorate (and population) as well as making it easier for 'us' to become 'them' too.

Question: you can’t quantify what ‘you’ve believe in since you were a child’

Answer - The Environment and Peace - I've been very aware of both since c.1970 and whilst not a 'flower-child' so to speak, my mc, professional parents never discouraged me from that (whilst they may have despaired for many other reasons).

Question/Comment: you are mysteriously busy so can’t answer questions ..........

Answer: Nothing mysterious about working all hours irrespective of your circumstance, nor caring for family, nor any other things completely not Brexit-related at all. And quite unmysteriously I'll be getting on with some more of that now but will pop back in soon.

Keep up the good work everybody and stay cool, literally :).

Completely agree with Clerc - TM is and has been completely honest - and has my respect; unfortunately as the well-worn saying goes, she was too honest for her own good.

Well, bloody good for her - I often turn another well-worn saying around - I don't say Don't let the Bastards grind you down - I say Don't let the Bastards turn you into one of them.

TM is and has been completely honest - and has my respect; unfortunately as the well-worn saying goes, she was too honest for her own good.

I simply don’t understand how you can possibly reach that conclusion.

TM was completely dishonest from the start.

If she’d been honest about what was possible in practice in leaving the EU, we wouldn’t be in such a mess now.

But no, she went in all guns blazing with Brexit means Brexit bullshit which just fuelled Leavers expectations.

And whilst I appreciate the answers in the previous post

• the first isn’t going to happen as they’ll be too busy blaming the EU for the mess Brexit has left them in

• how you think peace and the environment will be improved outside the EU is beyond me?

@HateIsNotGood

I am absolutely gobsmacked that anybody would vote Leave citing peace as a reason. Did NI even cross your mine? The international cooperation the EU brings? How do you think things are looking so far re peace? Two women have already been killed as a direct result of Brexit and stirring up of nationalists.

@HateIsNotGood I think regardless of the outcome the EU will be blamed for everything for many, many years and no government will ever accept responsibility for the Brexit clusterfuck.

{If she’d been honest about what was possible in practice in leaving the EU, we wouldn’t be in such a mess now.}

I am not sure that Theresa was a 'no deal' merchant at the beginning. She had said things like 'deep and meaningful trade arrangements' which although woolley, strongly suggested something like a Norway or Canada sort of 'deal' but then was refusing to listen to voices of reason (to achieve that) but was then quickly hammered by the ERG ites wanting a fast and destructive 'no deal' to maximise the benefits of disaster capitalism. If she had been as forceful as she has been on other matters at aiming for a Norway++ or something at the outset and successfully squashed the ERG, things would have been a lot better.
The 'hostile environment' was I believe a previous PM although she carried it out (as HS) and made it part of her policy as PM.

I don’t think TM was “too honest”. She wasn’t honest enough at the outset. Instead of all the pandering to the far right of the party and the “Brexit means Brexit” bullshit she should have managed expectations from the outset and made clear that due to how marginal the vote was that the hard Brexit option was not feasible. She forgot that although leave won she had to also come up with an option that was acceptable to remainers.

{She wasn’t honest enough at the outset.}

It was and is an impossible thing to get through to the UK public. To say that the economy will fall (effectively) by some 10%, probably a couple of million job losses and being dependent on new trade deals that will struggle (to put it mildly) to even match the 'deals' available as an EU member, let alone be better, when the negotiations for new tariffs hadn't even been considered properly.
Remainers are at least being a bit realistic about it but Leavers are still in fantasy land.

Voting leave because you hope for greater peace sounds worthy but is extremely misguided to say the least. Peace is the raison d'etre of the EU. It is literally the reason it was initially founded. Countries that are closely intertwined economically and with many bodies that lend themselves to discussion and collaboration are far less likely to enter into conflict with one another.

Given the horrors suffered in Continental Europe during WW2, I think it was brave and far-sighted of the founding fathers of the EEC to even make the proposals they did, never mind go on to enact them.

snip The sheer balls of both the SNP & the Lib Dems to openly say "we dont agree with leaving & will vote against it at all costs" is breathtaking.
It really isn't 'breathtaking'. One of the duties of MPs is to do what they think is for the good of the country, not to blindly follow 'the will of the people' if that 'will' is going to damage the UK.

By keeping our Governance 'close', with no EU 'scapegoat to blame, means 'they' are more accountable to their electorate (and population) as well as making it easier for 'us' to become 'them' too.

I keep thinking about this comment; if you genuinely believe this is true, how do you explain the fact we haven’t even left yet, despite 2 chances to do so?

The fact is politicians pretty much vote along party lines and very few people wholly support the policies of any party who is likely to gain sufficient seats to be influential in parliament.

Although the should represent the people first, they generally don’t, it’s party first.

One of the duties of MPs is to do what they think is for the good of the country, not to blindly follow 'the will of the people' if that 'will' is going to damage the UK.

I agree, and they have a duty to represent everyone, which includes those who vote a different way and those who didn't or couldn't vote.

Even if 'the will of the people' had been considerably greater than not quite 52% of those who voted, Parliament's duty would still be to say that they considered Leaving would be detrimental and put forward the arguments, if that is what they believed.

The sheer balls of both the SNP & the Lib Dems to openly say "we dont agree with leaving & will vote against it at all costs"

I don’t know about the Lib Dems but Scotland voted remain and every constituency with an SNP MP voted remain. Why they hell should they support a leave deal/no deal?

In short, it's all about the feelz. And if you don't have the feelz you are unpatriotic.
Yes, that's the basis on which to make a major decision that affects 60+million people. And that's just in the UK. Attempting to fuck over Ireland is just a bonus.

@HateIsNotGood

I've being thinking about what you posted today connecting voting Leave with peace and wondered if you could expand on that a little? Brexit to me is the very opposite of promoting peace, both in Europe and the UK. It's supported by all the far right racist groups, it threatens the peace in NI and the Union of the UK. I know Leavers and Remainers can both look at the same thing and read it completely differently so maybe you can explain your take on it? Genuine question, with respect, really trying to see what you see.