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Brexit
Original poster

There really is no point trying to persuade Leavers....

523 replies

Closertotheheart · 25/06/2019 19:21

As the title suggests really. There is no point trying to reason a debate with them as they are totally tunnel-visioned. Loads of them seem to think we should leave without a deal and go on to WTO rules.

They blame the Remainers in parliament for us having not left yet.

They blame Remainers in general for, well, seemingly anything and everything.

They blame the EU for us not having left yet.

They spout myth as if it was fact.

I despair. There really is no point trying to reason with them.

I'm at the point where I feel there is nothing left to say on the topic so let them have their 'victory' so at least they will have no one to blame.

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ContinuityError · 03/07/2019 11:35

Seems to be the opinion of 17.4 Million others too.

You can’t possibly know that.

The Vote Leave leaflet was sent to UK households so you have no idea how many people read it and were influenced in their vote.

LifeContinues · 03/07/2019 11:36

UK wants a deep and meaningful relationship with the EU

If so why was the vote not 100% remain?

Calling them 'Russians' or 'Nazis' is not a great start to the process

Money speaks many languages. UK is the third largest contribution to the EU pot. I can't see EU saying they don't want to see UK's money every again.

1tisILeClerc · 03/07/2019 11:45

{Money speaks many languages. UK is the third largest contribution to the EU pot. I can't see EU saying they don't want to see UK's money every again.}

The EU has already factored in the UK leaving. It will leave a bit of a hole in the EU funds, but not catastrophic and besides it has new trade deals with many other parts of the world so 'sales drives' in new markets will be partial compensation.
You may also not be considering other proactive efforts to boost EU activity over that of the UK, taking work from the UK. It can't at the present because the UK has not formally said it is leaving, but to think that European companies will not take as much benefit from the UK's weakness is rather foolish.
It is, after all what some in the ERG are wanting to do with their disaster capitalist theme. Wait for the UK to 'crash' then buy up assets in the fire sale using money they are just keeping safe 'offshore' until the balloon goes up.

1tisILeClerc · 03/07/2019 11:46

{UK wants a deep and meaningful relationship with the EU

If so why was the vote not 100% remain?}

Theresa kept saying it. The cabinet and HoC undermined it.

MeganBacon · 03/07/2019 12:54

I do, as a citizen of a democracy, feel some responsibility for the state of the country we live in, even though I voted Remain, just as I feel responsible for my own life even when things happen that I wouldn't have chosen - that doesn't make me less responsible for managing my way out. This is a million miles away from "blaming" remainers and you should not put your spin on what I have said and state that it means something it clearly does not.

Original poster
Closertotheheart · 03/07/2019 13:09

remainers have failed to swing the dial in the polls. That's a monumental fail, far worse than the original referendum

This reads as "blame remainers for their failings". Cant see how its intended as anything else to be honest.

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Original poster
Closertotheheart · 03/07/2019 13:11

I feel no responsibility for how others voted. And yes I did speak to friends prior to the referendum but their minds were made up.

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MeganBacon · 03/07/2019 13:57

Yes that was too strongly worded, sorry if I caused offence. I have said elsewhere that it falls to everyone to avoid polarisation though. The point should be more general - the press, politicians, the structure of government etc., all could have saved us from ourselves over the past three years but we haven't managed, collectively, to do so, in spite of time, expert analysis, yada yada. I voted Remain but do feel horror and some sense of responsibility for the state we are in.

Original poster
Closertotheheart · 03/07/2019 14:03

Most of the press are anti-EU and populism is the norm now. Politics is a popularity contest, a cult of personality.

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Original poster
Closertotheheart · 03/07/2019 14:05

@MeganBacon if you don't mind me asking, did you try to convince your husband to vote remain? Did he try to convince you to vote leave? Did you listen to each others points? How did that go?

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Coppersulphate · 03/07/2019 14:20

Most of thevpress are anti EU because most of the people are Leavers.
They want to sell newspapers.
The BBC is heavily biased towards Remain because most of their journalists want to work there. I have asked some of them and they are all pro Remain

1tisILeClerc · 03/07/2019 14:41

Coppersulphate
Did your Masters degree help you with this incisive work or just reading the Daily Fail?

MeganBacon · 03/07/2019 14:48

Closer my dh didn't have a vote in the referendum, but would have voted Leave it he had. He is very critical of the EU and a lot of what he says I agree with (we've lived in four eu countries and my work has involved working with the Commission). Where we differ was in that I didn't have a sense of how long it would take to build replacement arrangements, trade deals etc. I haven't any professional knowledge of that, but thought the it would probably be high risk and slow and not worth the trouble. He thought the UK economy was strong and we could withstand it, but I felt too protective of my own country to risk it - "it's not your country to gamble with". But there was never any bad feeling in our discussions and we still talk about it all the time now.

Original poster
Closertotheheart · 03/07/2019 15:07

Most of thevpress are anti EU because most of the people are Leavers.

Cart before the horse. The right wing press have always been anti EU (especially as they are owned by non-dom millionaires) so they drew people in with wild headlines. Most people who probably didn't pay the EU much interest were suddenly hoodwinked by the rise in anti EU rhetoric.

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Original poster
Closertotheheart · 03/07/2019 15:07

Megan - I agree, Leaving is too much of a gamble

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LifeContinues · 03/07/2019 16:01

Megan - I agree, Leaving is too much of a gamble

Too late. The bet was accepted by UK government when they agreed to a referendum. Never bet the if you can’t afford to lose. Conservative party know if Brexit is not delivered they they will cease to exist. Labour will not be elected as their position on Brexit has not been spelt out.

Lib Dems and Greens are too small at the moment. So that leaves Brexit Party who will collect the former conservative voters.

ContinuityError · 03/07/2019 16:15

Most of thevpress are anti EU because most of the people are Leavers

I’m guessing your Masters doesn’t involve either maths or stats.

bellinisurge · 03/07/2019 16:22

"MP's did not agree so it was voted down three times by; 230, 149 and 58 majorities.

That T May attempted to hide the details of the Legal position of the WA convinces me it was not leave, but remain. "

MPs in our sovereign parliament voted in after the referendum.
She didn't hide it from me. Perhaps you weren't bothering to look.
What on earth does "the WA was Remain " even mean?

LifeContinues · 03/07/2019 17:04

She didn't hide it from me. Perhaps you weren't bothering to look

MPs held government in contempt over not wanting to publish the full Brexit legal advice from the attorney-general which was that the backstop could result in the UK being tied to the EU and restrict UK in pursuing any independent trade policies.

Hence when the legal advice became available for MPs to read they realised that WA was rubbish and voted against it 3 times as it was remaining in the EU on terms that are less favourable than the current terms.

Coppersulphate · 03/07/2019 17:12

LeClerc, I have never read the Daily Mail.
Why on earth don't you call it by its name.

Coppersulphate · 03/07/2019 17:14

Closer, how do you know people were drawn in or hoodwinked?

bellinisurge · 03/07/2019 17:42

"MPs held government in contempt over not wanting to publish the full Brexit legal advice from the attorney-general which was that the backstop could result in the UK being tied to the EU and restrict UK in pursuing any independent trade policies."

Can't keep up with your twists and turns. Do we like MPs now or not.
Btw, if something is subject to legal privilege it's subject to legal privilege. Of course that privilege should have been waived earlier.
Again, are you for No Deal or against it @LifeContinues ? Or, like Johnson, Hunt, Corbyn and the rest, are you pretending not to hear the question?

bellinisurge · 03/07/2019 17:43

And how can it be a Remain WA if the terms are less favourable than the deal we have now?

Mistigri · 03/07/2019 17:52

they realised that WA was rubbish and voted against it 3 times as it was remaining in the EU

This is unadulterated garbage.

I don't think anyone would dispute that the WA does not give the U.K. much room for manoeuvre but the reason for this lack of agency is that under the WA the U.K. would be outside the EU and therefore unable to influence EU policy.

If brexiters want us to recognise that they really are jolly spiffingly clever people with lots of letters after their names, they maybe need to consider not spouting such utter claptrap..

TheElementsSong · 03/07/2019 18:13

Do we like MPs now or not.

Do keep up.

Some MPs are baddies who voted against the WA because they're traitorous Remoaners thwarting the Willy of the People and frustrating Brexit. Some MPs are goodies who voted against the WA because they're True BeLeaving Guardians of the Willy of The People and the WA is not True Pure Brexit which is No Deal Crash Out Only.

The way we tell which MPs are baddies and which MPs are goodies, despite the fact that both groups voted against the WA, is by looking into their souls. Or something.