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Original poster

There really is no point trying to persuade Leavers....

523 replies

Closertotheheart · 25/06/2019 19:21

As the title suggests really. There is no point trying to reason a debate with them as they are totally tunnel-visioned. Loads of them seem to think we should leave without a deal and go on to WTO rules.

They blame the Remainers in parliament for us having not left yet.

They blame Remainers in general for, well, seemingly anything and everything.

They blame the EU for us not having left yet.

They spout myth as if it was fact.

I despair. There really is no point trying to reason with them.

I'm at the point where I feel there is nothing left to say on the topic so let them have their 'victory' so at least they will have no one to blame.

OP posts:
Peregrina · 27/06/2019 18:45

I don't entirely agree here Bear. How we treat our livestock is very much an expression of the values we hold. If we don't value livestock as sentient beings, what else don't we value? Are we going to say, well the elderly will pop their clogs soon, so don't need medicines? We have already seen these sorts of attitudes in the past, but this does now seem to changing.

Bearbehind · 27/06/2019 18:52

In isolation of course we’d treat animals in the best way possible but my point was that IMO it is not even close to being worth the ‘cost of Brexit’

As is so often the case, this Leaver looked at one thing in isolation and didn’t think about how anything else might be affected

Peregrina · 27/06/2019 19:00

Agreed there. Neither of these cases would be worth jeopardising peace in N Ireland IMO.

1tisILeClerc · 27/06/2019 19:22

{In isolation of course we’d treat animals in the best way possible}

Sadly I would very much doubt this. There are plenty of 'unscrupulous' 'farmers' out there who do as little as possible and chasing an ever tighter budget rules will slacken.
One of the groups of people already identified as reducing due to Brexit are Vets, or those trained for the overseeing of animal welfare as many are from Eastern Europe.

Bearbehind · 27/06/2019 19:54

I’m not explaining myself very well tonight! 😂

I didn’t mean in isolation of the EU just that if most people were given a choice they’d choose to treat animals the best they could.

KennDodd · 27/06/2019 20:32

Petition for anti Brexit people, please sign and share.

www.marchforchange.uk/petition

HateIsNotGood · 27/06/2019 20:34

Many thanks to all who responded to my pov. Although a lot of the Leave vote has been described here and elsewhere as being rooted in discontent, and further described as being a discontent within the remit of the UK Govt to ease. I don't disagree with that.

But the reality is that the UK Govt hasn't done so. And yes I have noticed for decades that Govts/Civil Servants/Business have all blamed the EU at some time or another for their own failings.

So, keeping our Govt closer to us, without a scapegoat looks a very good option to me.

I do note that pp made other points too, which I could further debate, but please accept my apologies for now as I'm a bit busy with other things at the moment.

Also to clarify, I supported the WA by the time it went to the first HoC vote as it was the most sensible thing to do. But the silly buggers are playing silly buggers and the 'locals' are getting their act together so, as we have one life, why not go for the things I've believed in since I was a child.

Bearbehind · 27/06/2019 21:26

hate I really am trying not to be totally dismissive here but you are just spouting the same old same old

  • you’ve not even begun to explain how or why, the government will deal with any of the things you’ve listed when they have never bothered to do so before and they are going to be so wrapped up in the fall out from Brexit they can’t come up for air for decades
  • you can’t quantify what ‘you’ve believe in since you were a child’
  • you are mysteriously busy so can’t answer questions ..........
Peregrina · 27/06/2019 21:47

I thought this was quite a productive discussion, and while I agree that Governments won't have the easy excuse of blaming the EU, they will still find scapegoats.

So from Labour - it's all Mrs Thatcher's fault, even though she has been gone for getting on for thirty years.

Tories - look at the mess Labour left us in in 2010. Yes, but what have you been doing for virtually a decade now?

I am sure we could all think of many more.

So why might a Government decide to change? I am a cynic - because they realise that they will lose votes, is one reason.

KennDodd · 27/06/2019 21:59

I think they'll just continue to blame the EU (and immigrants) Raab is already laying the groundwork so he can say a 'no deal' is the EU's fault.

bellinisurge · 27/06/2019 22:13

They are definitely trying to spin the narrative that No Deal is the EU's fault. Which worries me not as an argument because it's utter bollocks but as the possibility it will gain some traction with the numpties -why should I be respectful of No Dealers, btw?

Peregrina · 27/06/2019 22:30

There will be a time when No Deal is the EU's fault runs out as an excuse.

I think 10 years is probably the time scale - so two full Parliaments, especially if the same party gets in both times.

hadthesnip2 · 27/06/2019 22:37

I haven't read the full thread but I'll bite......

Yes, I'm a leaver & the main people to blame for not exiting in March are the remainers in Parliament doing everything they can to deny democracy.

The sheer balls of both the SNP & the Lib Dems to openly say "we dont agree with leaving & will vote against it at all costs" is breathtaking. Its not up to them to stop a no deal, or any type of deal for that matter. The result of the referendum was to leave. End of. By all means scrutinise any deal that is "agreed" & reject it if you feel it is not fit for purpose (back stop etc)....BUT you do not get to stop the votes of the majority. That is not how democracy in this country works.

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hadthesnip2 · 27/06/2019 22:44

Meant to add......

So if any deal that is "agreed" by the Government does not pass muster then we should be leaving with no deal. There are only 2 ways to leave the EU - with a "deal" or without one. Teresa May's "deal" was voted down 3 times & so we should have left without one. It was obviously bad for us, so why leave with it. If the EU thinks that their "deal" was the only way we could leave then they were wrong. The main problem is that there are too many remainers in Cabinet & too many weak willed people.

hadthesnip2 · 27/06/2019 22:47

Are you saying that the UK should be held to ransom by 1 car manufacturer ?? Sounds like the 1970's & the power of the unions again.

Original poster
Closertotheheart · 27/06/2019 22:47

*The remainers in Parliament doing everything they can to deny democracy.

By all means scrutinise any deal that is "agreed" & reject it if you feel it is not fit for purpose (back stop etc)...*

The first statement you blamed remainers in parliament for doing their job.

The second statement says 'scrutinise any deal and reject it if you see fit' which is exactly what the remainers in parliament did with the WA.

I'm not sure how you've missed that crucial point.

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Original poster
Closertotheheart · 27/06/2019 22:49

Nope, I'm saying that any deal that isn't fit for UK business will be bad. It's not just one manufacturer. You have seen other car plants close recently haven't you?

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Original poster
Closertotheheart · 27/06/2019 23:00

From the article.

Unite union spokesman, said: "PSA have made it very clear that no deal means no deal for Ellesmere Port.

"We are calling on the government to take no deal off the table so that the future of Ellesmere Port - and the thousands of jobs in the supply chain - can be secured."

I really cant wait for a no-deal Brexit, its sounds absolutely fantastic!! 🤔

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Peregrina · 27/06/2019 23:02

Didn't know that Boris Johnson was a Remainer. I could have sworn he was there fronting the Leave campaign.

Mistigri · 27/06/2019 23:05

That is not how democracy in this country works.

I don't think you understand how British democracy works.

Original poster
Closertotheheart · 27/06/2019 23:13

Doubt snip will be back. But it's a fine example of Leavers blaming others for the current state. Hoping Backyard is still reading this thread and now realises what I'm talking about. 'They all' (Leavers that is) blame others for us not having left the EU yet. I'm not delusional, I've read so many comments all chanting the same thing.

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bellinisurge · 28/06/2019 06:32

It's increasingly obvious that the new narrative is that : "in the unlikely event No Deal is bad, it's al the EU's fault."

"Four legs good, two legs better", anyone?

Bearbehind · 28/06/2019 06:37

Are you saying that the UK should be held to ransom by 1 car manufacturer ??

This comment astounds me. It is only Leaver who think that the limited options we’ve been offered is because of BMW.

Show me one place (not a Leave forum) where that has even been implied let alone stated.

It’s still part of the ‘they need us more than we need them’ narrative

The fact that, in 3 years, they haven’t bothered to read or understand the reality exactly proves the title of this thread - there really is no point in discussing this with Leavers who are refusing to acknowledge any of the realities here.

frumpety · 28/06/2019 06:52

What I still don't understand is the continuing idea that leaving with no deal means that's it , Brexit is achieved, all done and dusted.
The WA isn't a 'deal', it is merely an agreement on a few key things, so we can move forward to negotiating on the other things such as trade. Regardless of the outcome at the end of October, (unless the UK revokes Art 50), this will still happen and it will take years. Brexit is not a simple solution.